Man Shot Dead On The Tube

[London Irish]

You just have to get a snide comment in there. Well done.

You are walking-talking irony.

 

[Easy 10]

I'm interested why you make this excuse for the police officer, and not the Brazilian.

I think it is certainly true in the case of the Brazilian, who reacted in a moment of split-second panic, but not true of the police.

The police had a far, far longer period where they examined intelligence before senior officers made the decision to designate this guy a suspected terrorist and apply the new shoot-to-kill policy to him. My feeling is that the inquiry will be looking more closely at this longer time-period even more so than whether the police shooters ignored any possible red flag warnings that this guy was merely an electrician on his way to his next job.

The split second decision that the officer made was, as we now know, a wrong call. But how much of that decision was based on the intelligence and surveillance on this guy, and how much of that decision was based on the fact that they were in a situation where they'd had to pursue this guy into an underground station and onto a train to get hold of him.

You've then got what you *strongly suspect* to be a suicide bomber pinned under your right knee who you think is about to detonate, so what do you do ? Hope that you can cuff him before he pulls the ripcord and kill everything in a 20 yard radius ? Or unload five shells into the back of his head before he gets the chance ?

Don't get me wrong, this as been a complete f***-up obviously, because an innocent man now lays dead. But personally, I cannot bring myself to completely blame the police for how they reacted once they had a "runner". My opinion would probably be completely different if it was a friend or family member of mine that had been killed...but they acted on instinct to try to prevent a trainful of people getting blown up. That is understandable.

 

[Uncle Buck]

You are walking-talking irony.

and your walking talking opinion, but society does not hold that against you, yet.

 

[Hampden Park]

Except you do not know the circumstances in which the police approached the Brazilian, and you do not know whether the Brazilian was able to clearly comprehend the instructions that were being shouted to him. If the police were terrified that he was a suicide bomber, I wonder how close they would have got to him before challenging him?

All this will be investigated at the inquiry. But it will be police intelligence, methods and procedures on trial, not the panicky reactions of an ordinary member of the public just going about his normal business.

thats your thoughts on it. i dont think an ordinary member of the public would have reacted in this manner (my thoughts). if he had stopped then....................... it speaks for itself. lessons will be learnt from this.

 

[London Irish]

and your walking talking opinion, but society does not hold that against you, yet.

Yet?

Go on, let us into your fiendish plan for making people with opinions outcasts in society

 

[Uncle Buck]

Yet?

Go on, let us into your fiendish plan for making people with opinions outcasts in society

To be perfectly honest I think our present Government are more than capable of that with their current anti-terror and ID Legislation.

But that is what comes from having no written constitution or Bill of Rights.

 

[London Irish]

But how much of that decision was based on the intelligence and surveillance on this guy

Aren't you at all bothered by the fact that they sent a shoot-to-kill response unit after this guy on the basis of absolutely no intelligence whatsoever? That is the truly stunning thing about this tragedy.

I agree with you to the extent that it is highly likely the individual police shooters will probably be exonerated, on the age-old basis of shit information in, shit decisions out. But the senior officers who gave shoot-to-kill mandate on the basis of NOTHING should not be so fortunate. I have absolutely no confidence in the ability of these clowns to protect me when I travel into central London on public transport every day.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

thats your thoughts on it. i dont think an ordinary member of the public would have reacted in this manner (my thoughts). if he had stopped then....................... it speaks for itself. lessons will be learnt from this.

hampden park - ordinary member of the public covers a spectrum of people any of whom may have reasons not to speak to the police, who may not believe people in plain clothes shouting "police", and some people are simply not that bright.

 

[Hampden Park]

hampden park - ordinary member of the public covers a spectrum of people any of whom may have reasons not to speak to the police, who may not believe people in plain clothes shouting "police", and some people are simply not that bright.

cant argue with that DKM. coming from a military background i would have responded/reacted differently

 

[London Calling]

hampden park - ordinary member of the public covers a spectrum of people any of whom may have reasons not to speak to the police, who may not believe people in plain clothes shouting "police", and some people are simply not that bright.

.....................but we are not talking about a normal day in London, for the first time I can remember all of our local stations had Police outside them, In Hackney we've had Police on the buses. At the moment we have got more than average Police sirens.

Everyone talking about the bombs, looking for suspicious people. As I said earlier I have already had a bomb alert and know of casualties.

To run away in such a manner - for me - beggars disbelief.

In the time the Police had (were they catching him up, were they on his bus) and his actions, only one conclusion could be made.

Unfortunately, it was wrong one!

LC

 

[Hampden Park]

.....................but we are not talking about a normal day in London, for the first time I can remember all of our local stations had Police outside them, In Hackney we've had Police on the buses. At the moment we have got more than average sirens.

Everyone talking about the bombs, looking for suspecious peole. As I said earlier I have already had a bomb alert and know of casulties.

To run away in such a manner - for me - beggars disbelief.

In the time the Police had (were they catching him up, were they on his bus) and his actions, only one conclusion could be made.

Unfortunately, it was wrong one!

LC

cant argue with that either LC.

 

[Uncle Buck]

cant argue with that either LC.

I know someone that can.....

 

[London Irish]

.....................but we are not talking about a normal day in London, for the first time I can remember all of our local stations had Police outside them, In Hackney we've had Police on the buses. At the moment we have got more than average Police sirens.

Everyone talking about the bombs, looking for suspicious people.

Can't you logically see that all this is evidence in favour of why the Brazilian reacted in a panicked manner when he responded to something out of the ordinary and suspicious?

 

[Easy 10]

Aren't you at all bothered by the fact that they sent a shoot-to-kill response unit after this guy on the basis of absolutely no intelligence whatsoever? That is the truly stunning thing about this tragedy.

This didn't become a "shoot to kill" response UNTIL the guy turned tail and ran like f*** into the underground and dived on a train. If he'd have stopped in the street, as he was ordered to do so, then he would still be breathing today.

What were they supposed to do ? Hold a quick focus group to find out whether the guy understands "STOP POLICE" ? Maybe an on-the-spot seminar to determine brazilian immigrants and their typical and/or likely reaction to being ordered to stop ? How about shouting out some multiple-chioce questions during the pursuit on how to wire a plug, or how best to go about re-wiring a garage or outhouse building ?

 

[London Irish]

This didn't become a "shoot to kill" response UNTIL the guy turned tail and ran like f*** into the underground and dived on a train. If he'd have stopped in the street, as he was ordered to do so, then he would still be breathing today.

What were they supposed to do ? Hold a quick focus group to find out whether the guy understands "STOP POLICE" ? Maybe an on-the-spot seminar to determine brazilian immigrants and their typical and/or likely reaction to being ordered to stop ? How about shouting out some multiple-chioce questions during the pursuit on how to wire a plug, or how best to go about re-wiring a garage or outhouse building ?

What were they supposed to do? How about not sending armed police with a shoot-to-kill instructions after someone they had absolutely no intelligence on whatsoever? Does that sound so silly

Focusing on the split-second conduct of the police shooters won't get us anywhere, we can all agree that in certain circumstances, (which they will have to demonstrate at the inqury were present) their actions could have been justifiable.

However, I want to know what plausible excuses exist for senior police officers when they put a target on this electrician's head. On the basis of NOTHING.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Watching the news at 1 ( I am off sick still), his visa had expired some time ago...the speculation was that he was challenged and thought they were after him because of that and he panicked.

I think people ought to look at this in context. We are at WAR, simple as. There are people out there who want to kill you and me purely because we are citizens of this country...we could be white, brown, yellow , green with purple spots....we could be christians, muslems, sikhs, hindus , athiests, they do not give a f***. If you are stood next to them when they deliver themselves to "heaven" then woe be tide you.

Unfortunately, it was a terrible tragedy however if we are not careful we could defelect the press and media away from the real issues. Which are catching these maniacs before they do it again.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

There is a suspicion with the police that "they all look the same". That is at the back of my mind. Probably unfair I know - but I would like to see comparison pictures of who they thought he was.

People act in strange and different ways when confronted with the police - take that bloke in Whitehall arrested on the day of the second bombings. He was all over the airwaves and papers - but nothing to do with the investigation.

 

[Meade's Ball]

This didn't become a "shoot to kill" response UNTIL the guy turned tail and ran like f*** into the underground and dived on a train. If he'd have stopped in the street, as he was ordered to do so, then he would still be breathing today.

What were they supposed to do ? Hold a quick focus group to find out whether the guy understands "STOP POLICE" ? Maybe an on-the-spot seminar to determine brazilian immigrants and their typical and/or likely reaction to being ordered to stop ? How about shouting out some multiple-chioce questions during the pursuit on how to wire a plug, or how best to go about re-wiring a garage or outhouse building ?

I'm sorry, but you cannot blame this bloke for being shot 5 times in the head.
What they should not have done is followed and intimidated an almost-completely innocent man. Why he ran, we cannot truly understand, but he is not responsible for his own death. 20 or so people chased him and then he was shot 5 times in the face. That is not his fault. That is purely the responsibility of the police, their poor intelligence, how they acted and their preconceptions of a non-white man in a big coat.
I can understand they are under pressure because of repeated failure to protect people and everyone is tense, but to make out that this man's reactions are what killed him is ridiculous and insulting.

 

[Dave the OAP]

...following on, seemly documents found in the unexploded bomb on the tube at S Bush were addressed to that address he lived at....just reported on Reuters

Hence they had been watching the house. People also said he was wearing a belt, speculation is that it was an electricians tool belt which would look like something strapped to him.

This morning on Sky News, the questions were being asked as to why they let him get anywhere near a tube station as he jumped on a bus to take him there.

 

[Easy 10]

What were they supposed to do? How about not sending armed police with a shoot-to-kill instructions after someone they had absolutely no intelligence on whatsoever? Does that sound so silly .

You've ignored my opening paragraph there, so I'll say it again.

This did not become a "shoot to kill" response UNTIL the guy turned tail and ran like f*** into the underground and dived on a train. If he'd have stopped in the street, as he was ordered to do so, then he would still be breathing today.

Had they blown the guys brains out as soon as he stepped outside his front door, then yes, to put it one way, that would have been a bit silly, and the police would be deserving of a severe backlash. But this didn't turn into a life-or-death decision until that fella decided that running into an underground station, pursued by police, two weeks after three stations had been blown up, was in some way a good idea.

Stupidity is not a crime though, and his death is a tragedy. But I'm not going to castigate the police for acting in, what they felt, was the best interests of the public.