Man Shot Dead On The Tube

[Captain Sensible]

It was a mistake. Yes, it is regretable. The jist of what most of you are saying is about how Police shouldn't be allowed to just shoot someone dead. However, what if he was one of the bombers and they shot him and saved dozens of lives. Would you all be so damning of their shoot to kill policy?

 

[perseus]

But what are you more worried about: rucksacks or armed people with guns?

Shooting people does not disrupt the underground services for such a long time.

It could be said that explosions are an economic attack. Shooting is discriminate. The gunslinger can choose his target. He could just shoot people with rucksacks, and large rucksacks at that, rucksacks large enough to carry explosives, detonators, or football kit?

 

[Springal]

SAS wouldnt get involved in babysitting british citizens, more like a branch of MOD, or Special Branch or something like that

 

[Ex-Staffs Gull]

But what are you more worried about: rucksacks or armed people with guns?

Shooting people does not disrupt the underground services for such a long time.

It could be said that explosions are an economic attack. Shooting is discriminate. The gunslinger can choose his target. He could just shoot people with rucksacks, and large rucksacks at that, rucksacks large enough to carry explosives, detonators, or football kit?

FFS Perseus, I know you have a very slim grip on reality, but this is rediculous, 100's of people carry cases, rucksacks, bags on the underground everyday, including many muslims who don't get hasseled or shot. The chain of events was very unfortunate for ALL concerned, but not some random act of murder as people seem to be saying ....

 

[NMH]

It was a mistake. Yes, it is regretable. The jist of what most of you are saying is about how Police shouldn't be allowed to just shoot someone dead. However, what if he was one of the bombers and they shot him and saved dozens of lives. Would you all be so damning of their shoot to kill policy?

Life has so many "what ifs". And the paragraph is just another one of them.
What if we came up with loads more what ifs, would it help excuse the police murdering the wrong man as proof of how efficiently their anti-terrorist 'intelligence' is working in London?

 

[London Calling]

Its all clear now. It was part of the Govt's ploy to reduce asylum seekers.

"Shooting victim had expired visa

Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.

The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.

Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.




Would-be bombers 'at large'
'New' terrorism sparks fear

Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.

Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.

"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.

Under surveillance

However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.


"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.

"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."


Mr Menezes' cousin says the police "must pay"

Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.

He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.

Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.

Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.

Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.


The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.

You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect

Maria do Socorro

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.

"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.

"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

'Highly trained'

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.

Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.

"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"

 

[Meade's Ball]

They can't shoot people on assumptions. The assumption that someone who isn't white is a threat. The assumption that a big coat could contain explosives. The assumption that running from the police is a sure sign of guilt.
They shot a man's face off because they were ill-prepared. That oughtn't happen again.

 

[Box of Frogs]

Turns out his work permit had expired - could explain why he was running away? Not worth losing your life for - he had been in this country for 3 years working as an electrician, would have a learnt a bit of basic English by now e.g. "Stop, Armed Police"!

 

[London Irish]

The Brazilian electrician died because the intelligence was hopeless and the new shoot-to-kill policy gave police no chance to rectify their many errors. Whether the individual police officer shooters were culpable, it's only fair a judicial process makes that call with relation to the instructions they were given, the manner in which they approached the Brazilian and whether they ignored any obvious red flag warnings in making their decision to kill the electrician. These are highly-trained, highly specialised men and they will have to answer all these questions thoroughly before the public can have any confidence in sending them out on to the street with guns again.

However, I am far more concerned about the quality of management leadership these guys were given in terms of how the intelligence was interpreted. It is too easy to merely point the fingers at low-ranking police oficers. Very high-ranking police officers would have determined that this electrician represented a terrorist threat that the shoot-to-kill policy had to apply to. These are the persons who will REALLY have to answer to the inquiry and whose careers as public servants I would hope is under severe threat.

 

[London Irish]

Turns out his work permit had expired - could explain why he was running away? Not worth losing your life for - he had been in this country for 3 years working as an electrician, would have a learnt a bit of basic English by now e.g. "Stop, Armed Police"!

....or as equally plausibly, perhaps seeing a gang of plain-clothes men charging towards him holding guns and screaming at the top of their voices in not his native language might perhaps induce panic in anyone?

Answer honestly now. Given the current state of panicky tension in London, if you saw such a gang of men coming towards you, could you guarantee you would stand stock still and a hum a happy little tune to youself along the lines of "shit doesn't happen in real life, I'm sure this is going to work out just fine".

Who knows, given this guy comes from South America, perhaps he is overly familiar with the concept of of state-sponsored death squads roaming the streets.

 

[CHAPPERS]

It was a f*** up, plain and simple BUT you've got to think that someone running from armed officers who HAD been told to stop towards an underground train would have suggested that he had more to hide than an expired work visa.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

They were not in uniform. He may be from a society that if someone shouts "Stop" "Police" - you do leg it.

It's a cock-up - but the potential for cock-ups must be thought about beforehand.

 

[London Irish]

It was a f*** up, plain and simple BUT you've got to think that someone running from armed officers who HAD been told to stop towards an underground train would have suggested that he had more to hide than an expired work visa.

Why? Are you suggesting it is not in human nature to make split-second decisons to panic in moments of extreme stress?

 

[London Calling]

....or as equally plausibly, perhaps seeing a gang of plain-clothes men charging towards him holding guns and screaming at the top of their voices in not his native language might perhaps induce panic in anyone?

Answer honestly now. Given the current state of panicky tension in London, if you saw such a gang of men coming towards you, could you guarantee you would stand stock still and a hum a happy little tune to youself along the lines of "shit doesn't happen in real life, I'm sure this is going to work out just fine".

Who knows, given this guy comes from South America, perhaps he is overly familiar with the concept of of state-sponsored death squads roaming the streets.

Actually, I probably **** myself. I imagine eventually we find out that he also did petty crime or something else that really made him leg it.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Why? Are you suggesting it is not in human nature to make split-second decisons to panic in moments of extreme stress?

No.

 

[London Irish]

No.

I thought not. Then, perhaps we should stop the grossly tasteless shitting on the dead body of this Brazilian guy with this idiotic speculation about his panicky conduct.

It is perfectly obvious, plausible, explainable conduct that someone would panic in the face of the split-second circumstances he was faced with.

 

[CHAPPERS]

I thought not. Then, perhaps we should stop the grossly tasteless shitting on the dead body of this Brazilian guy with this idiotic speculation about his panicky conduct.

It is perfectly obvious, plausible, explainable conduct that someone would panic in the face of the split-second circumstances he was faced with.

I didn't say it wasn't.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I thought not. Then, perhaps we should stop the grossly tasteless shitting on the dead body of this Brazilian guy with this idiotic speculation about his panicky conduct.

It is perfectly obvious, plausible, explainable conduct that someone would panic in the face of the split-second circumstances he was faced with.

Why don't you stop being so aggressive towards people who differ in opinion from you.

You are a tiresome bully at time.

 

[London Irish]

Why don't you stop being so aggressive towards people who differ in opinion from you.

You are a tiresome bully at time.

Not the time and place for this kind of personal attacks - can you confine it to the pantomime football threads please. Thanks.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Not the time and place for this kind of personal attacks - can you confine it to the pantomime football threads please. Thanks.

Actually no, as you are doing what you always do. But off you go and attack those that do not agree with you.