Man Shot Dead On The Tube

[somerset]

That's not the choice though, is it.

I don't want the authorities to be able to shoot people on the following grounds:
1 - race
2 - size of coat
3 - the police imagining he has an explosive belt
and finally
4 - running from the police


None of these reasons is good enough. I understand completely in this tense time that they can't take chances. But they did and a man died because of it. A man whose death people try to blame on terrorists. Nope. Police did it. Not good enough. Can't kill on guesswork and racial stereotyping.

...... but sir, ........... and your view on the police if they prevaricated at the moment of decision at the door of a tube and boom, there goes another 50 innocents....... sadly i suspect you would round on them with equal scorn and disdain.

 

[London Calling]

What you have failed to do there Irish is put yourself in the position of the officer on the ground, who is not responsible for the shit intelligence, and almost certainly not the decision NOT to arrest the guy on the street - and allow him into the tube.

Once he's there, however wrongly, the rules have changed. You are being told someone is a suicide bomb suspect. Very recently tens of people have been blown to pieces. He runs off down to a train when confronted. That officer is faced with the - in his eyes - remote possibility of there being a colossal intelligence f***-up, or the more real possibility of there being another catastrophe on his watch.

I'd say it's almost a dead cert the shooter faces no charges. Higher up, people should resign because as you say, it's been a disastrous episode in every respect.

I imagine the survellience teams and anxillaries would range from MI5 through to SO 9, Min of Defence, GCHQ etc

All generally interchange roles and personalties.

The top brass will probably get relocated or promoted before being held to account.

LC

 

[Simster]

The police *HAVE* to act appropriately on the intelligence they are passed. If the police are told that the bloke running towards the tube station with a rucksack on his back is carrying explosives with a view to blowing up dozens of innocent passengers, then I want the police to do what they have to do to minimise the loss of life. And in their eyes, that is what they did.

This isn't the sort of police f*** up we've seen in the past like the black guy who waved a stick out of his bedroom window so they blew his face off - on the grounds that it looked like a gun.

This was an intelligence f*** up, and it is they who are accountable. The public needs answers as to how this could have happened...

 

[zefarelly]

yep and I've got one too.....if you're in London or anywhere else for that matter and people run up to you shouting "armed police, stand still or I fire" just do the right thing and stand still and calmly raise your hands above your head.

what a rediculous idea, surely its the right of everyone to try and run away

 

[London Irish]

What you have failed to do there Irish is put yourself in the position of the officer on the ground, who is not responsible for the shit intelligence, and almost certainly not the decision NOT to arrest the guy on the street - and allow him into the tube.

Once he's there, however wrongly, the rules have changed. You are being told someone is a suicide bomb suspect. Very recently tens of people have been blown to pieces. He runs off down to a train when confronted. That officer is faced with the - in his eyes - remote possibility of there being a colossal intelligence f***-up, or the more real possibility of there being another catastrophe on his watch.

I'd say it's almost a dead cert the shooter faces no charges. Higher up, people should resign because as you say, it's been a disastrous episode in every respect.

I think that's all pretty fair comment. If that's the way it happened, the individual shooters will be exonerated. But before that happens they will have to show that they 1) approached him at the correct moment in the surveillance 2) approached him in the correct manner 3) didn't ignore any signs that he was an innocent civilian that a highly trained police officer shouldn't ignore. If they pass all those tests, they get sent out back to work, if not, they get re-assigned and/or prosecuted.

But as you say, there were far more catastrophic mistakes than those possibly committed by low-ranking police officers - and these remain the biggest cause for concern.

 

[C1 BHA]

He who can outrun a bullet is a bloody good runner. Not wishing to trivialise this bloke's death at all BUT, if he had just done as he was told, he'd have got handcuffed, hurled into a van and disappeared off to some high security police station. The old bill would have eventually realised they had the wrong man and he would have walked free.

 

[C1 BHA]

It's a waste of human life.

 

[somerset]

The police *HAVE* to act appropriately on the intelligence they are passed. If the police are told that the bloke running towards the tube station with a rucksack on his back is carrying explosives with a view to blowing up dozens of innocent passengers, then I want the police to do what they have to do to minimise the loss of life. And in their eyes, that is what they did.

This isn't the sort of police f*** up we've seen in the past like the black guy who waved a stick out of his bedroom window so they blew his face off - on the grounds that it looked like a gun.

This was an intelligence f*** up, and it is they who are accountable. The public needs answers as to how this could have happened...

Wouldn't you think the resources available are currently best used to root out the causes and causers, of the bombings..... or is that too politically insensitive?

 

[Simster]

Wouldn't you think the resources available are currently best used to root out the causes and causers, of the bombings..... or is that too politically insensitive?

Yes but what has that got to do with my post?

 

[somerset]

The response to this question you posed so boldly on behalf of the nation as a whole:

The public needs answers as to how this could have happened...

 

[NMH]

Of course there are a few 'ifs' regarding the possible reactions of a foreigner in London (which is alive with foreigners), and it's alright to suggest that this chap was best shot than leave anything to chance. Here's another 'if'; the train-driver fellow who ALSO did a runner must have ignored supposedly 'clear' warnings from these armed blokes running at him. He apparently ended up with a gun to his head as well. What if, (since he ran away we can assume he did NOT think these blokes were coppers) he had then struggled to dis-arm the gunman, or still tried to escape?

I have to think that this OTHER chappie was LEGALLY in Britain, as he had a rather responsible job that would have vetted him. What if the gunman had disposed of HIM, just to make sure everyone was safe? The cop did chase this man down to the finish - can we now say that his legal status makes an iota of difference?

Why don't we just make London like a halloween party, and warn everyone that they could get approached by armed strangers at any moment? It'll add to the guesswork and excitement already involved with simply catching a bus or taking a train.



p.s. The "gunman" reference is, of course, made about the armed policeman. We now know these gunmen were actually police, but at the time, to everyone on the scene, they were just a bunch of gunmen (ferchrissake) and with looks of intent on their gunmen faces. With all the chasing and sounds at the scene at the time, can anyone imagine the clarity of the request "stop, I am actually a policeman and wish to question you".
'Apparently' it did not get through to two innocent people, one of which was executed.

 

[Albion Rob]

I'm coming in to this a bit cold but with reference to NMH's point, I would think that two factors that counted massively in the Tube driver's favour as far as not getting shot were concerned were that a) He was not running on to a busy Tube train; and b) Police probably expect some degree of panic to ensue whenever they discharge firearms.

On that basis, maybe the police were being very cautious with the Tube driver but at no point would have shot him.

Having said that, I was not there and don't know this to be the case, I'm simply speculating.

I echo the sentiments of others on here though that answers need to come from the top on this issue.

 

[clapham_gull]

Estate in Stockwell raided tonight.

 

[clapham_gull]

The tube driver jumped off the train and legged it, quite sensible - since apparently there was a "suicide bomber" on his train.

He ended up with a gun in his head. He was a West Indian.

A GUN AGAINST HIS HEAD...

What the f*** were the Police thinking, by coincidence there was another bomber waiting in the station they chased the Brallizian into cunningly disguised in a LU uniform ?

I hope he sues for damages.

 

[London Calling]

The only rationale I can come up with for the Police and the driver is the following.

A previous tube bomber had left the scene through the back carriage back window and ran up the track. In the all hell letting lose scenario. They had to make a judgment call, was the "driver" or an accomplice trying to escape!?

If so he had to be treated as such.

Again, in a normal situation, this would have been obscene and idiotic behavior by the Police.

LC

 

[Tom Bombadil]

You just have to get a snide comment in there. Well done.

For fcuks sake give it a rest, your one man crusade against LI is getting tedious. Yes he's an opinionated bully at times, but your constant personal attacks are just ruining threads as they degenarate into a slanging match.
Remember - Just leave it 'E's not wurf it.