Man Shot Dead On The Tube

[clapham_gull]

It is a terrible situation but I guess the flipside is that they let him run off, he turns out to be a bomber and kills a few hundred people.

They did let him run off. That's my point.

They only got to him IN THE TUBE.

If he had been a bomber, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CAUGHT HIM.

This talk of stopping a "potential" bomber is rubbish, the reason he didn't detonate a bomb is because he didn't have one.

They gave him ample opportunity to do so.

He may have panicked, but didn't also the Police ?

 

[London Irish]

are you a guardian employee or perhaps a teacher, a product of one of those "teacher training colleges"? where the only training appears to be in extreme left-wing views.

No, no and no. But if, at 18, I'd known a college for extreme left-wing views existed, I'd have certainly put it on my UCCA form. I put Sussex University instead, which I thought was the next best thing

Luckily for you, I couldn't be arsed to leave Brighton

 

[DJ Leon]

Which is exactly how you could describe most Asians. The fact is, look at every eye-witness comment following the shooting, and nearly every one describe him as of Asian appearance.

I really would never describe an Asian as having olive coloured skin. But you're right, all eye witness reports did describe him as being Asain. I just hope that not everyone out there thinks that if you're not a pasty alabaster colour then you must be Asian.

It reminds me that David Baddiel once said he been racially attacked twice - once for being Jewish and once for being a Pakistani.

 

[London Calling]

That's an excuse to fall back on racial profiling, which will be disastrous in fighting the bombers, because it will alienate the Muslim community and not produce the intelligence that we need.

In a way, I'm very much less interested in yours and other white people's view of this Stockwell shooting, because you are not likely to be in a position to grass up some stupid young kid about to fall into Al Quada's orbit. These ordinary people from the immigrant communities are the ones who could perform the vital function in stopping the bombers and I'm more interested in whether they can philosophically shrug their shoulders at the greater risk of armed police following their sisters or cousins around London and blow their heads off if they make a slightly wrong move.

And by the way, the shoe bomber Reid was mixed race (Afro-Caribbean) not white as has been stated in this thread. Whitey is sitting pretty happy with hair-trigger shooting-to-kill police running around the place at the moment.

Below is an attachment from another post I made yesterday.

"Today I took the 254 from Hackney Central through Haggerston, Bethnal Green, Whitechaple and finally to Aldgate. Basically the core of the UK Muslim population.

Even as a local, a couple of things still hit me today.
1. The flowers and pictures still outside the Royal London Hospital and that only a block away is

2.the East London Mosque the one that came under armed siege last week.
3. Only a short distance away is the 26 bus route.

These attacks are just as likely to harm Moslems as the classic UK WASP.

Interestingly posted all over the Mosque are signs instructing punters to keep a hold of their belongings. At these times are religions and races are cautious and fearful!

Probably like a number of other Londoners I have already had my "bomb scare" and yes, I had a good look at the back of bus for any thing suspicious."


As other punters may recall I have always proudly stood up for Hackney and our great black and ethnic minority population. Which is diverse as anything you will find in the world?

I don't need to theoretically debate good race relations. I live them.

Earlier on this thread I referred to my friends. Not the classic white British as most people on here will have. But Turkish and Kurdish, Vietnamese, Somali, Nigerian, Bangladeshi, Hindu, Orthodox Jew.

I can go on.

Not one so far could fathom why that bloke ran. Most of them already have their own war-torn experiences; many have stories that put our recent experiences into perspective. Many have seen atrocities far worse than anything we have seen so far.

And they are all jumpy because it is their buses being blown up; it is their rail network being attacked.

LC

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

I really would never describe an Asian as having olive coloured skin. But you're right, all eye witness reports did describe him as being Asain. I just hope that not everyone out there thinks that if you're not a pasty alabaster colour then you must be Asian.

It reminds me that David Baddiel once said he been racially attacked twice - once for being Jewish and once for being a Pakistani.

I think if Baddiel was honest, he was attacked twice for the same reason. Being a crap comic and a bit of a !!!!.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Below is an attachment from another post I made yesterday.


These attacks are just as likely to harm Moslems as the classic UK WASP.

Not one so far could fathom why that bloke ran. Most of them already have their own war-torn experiences; many have stories that put our recent experiences into perspective. Many have seen atrocities far worse than anything we have seen so far.

LC

I think that part of the problem is that people try to use Western rationalisation to understand the problem. The fact that they would have taken out other Muslims is not important to them in the overall scheme of things - they are concerned with a final picture (I was going to put final solution, but that has dodgier overtones!), not the little battles that make up their final victory. If a bomber took Muslims with him/her, don't forget that they also become martyrs to the cause, and get the same reward in heaven IF they have been "good Muslims" - and if they haven't been good Muslims, then the bomber does not care because they don't deserve the ultimate reward.

Yes, some of the atrocities that are being perpetrated in other countries make the fact that the corner shop is out of milk pale into insignificance. Because of the way this is unfolding, you are being given choices to make - reduced civil liberties, more inconvenience, an appreciation of the tactics that other people will use and the acceptance that we will have to modify tactics to meet these changes.

Diverse race relations are not necessarily a good thing - even Trevor Phillips, head of the CRE, admits that forcing multiculturalism is a bad thing and that loyalty to an adopted country and acceptance of their rules and codes of conduct is more important (strangely enough, the same sort of thing that Lord Tebbit was called a racist for suggesting!).

 

[perseus]

Protest in Brazil after shooting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4714691.stm

Further demonstrations are being planned in other areas
Relatives and friends of an innocent man shot dead by UK police on the Tube on Friday have marched in his home town in Brazil demanding arrests be made.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot eight times at Stockwell station after he was mistaken for a suicide bomber.

Tony Blair has said he is "desperately sorry" but urged people to support the police in "difficult circumstances" in the wake of the London bombings.

The hundreds of protesters in Gonzaga said the apology did not go far enough.

The Landless Rural Workers' Movement said it would demonstrate on Tuesday in front of the British Embassy in Brasilia and the consulate in Rio de Janeiro.

Comment: Tony Blair has asked the public to support the Police shooting an innocent prson by mistake, or by negligence, carelessness, misjudgement, lack of intelligence, paranoid stupidity ....

Have we got the right people in charge?

The other Blair (Commissioner of the Met) said that other innocent people might get shot as well

 

[NMH]

I want to underline some basic and tangible facts here, especially as this debate is declining into semantics about "I don't like your text-attitude" and it's becoming tiresome reading;

The actions of the police have, unwittingly, resulted in an INNOCENT MAN DEAD.
There may be a plethora of reasons surrounding the circumstance, and we cannot know what the innocent man was thinking when faced (in a foreign country that is not known for on-the-spot executions) with a bunch of strangers NOT in uniforms apparently shouting at him in what is to him a foreign language.
Did he see their guns? perhaps.

Question; was he disorientated, afraid, wanting to run? and is that a surprising reaction??

Answer; apparently NOT, as a completely unrelated innocent man also took flight, and also got a gun to his head!!

What is inherent to this circumstance, after a terrorist act?
That people are nervous, jumpy, changing their demeanors.

What is London known for?
Lots of foreigners - many struggling with local language incidentally - many strangers, and in a climate of increased stress.

What is the WORST possible thing the police can do, when entrusted to guard and protect human life?
Answer; DRESS OUT OF UNIFORM AND ACT IN A THREATENING MANNER.

No no NMH, what is even worse than that simple action?
Answer; CARRY FIREARMS, WARN A SUSPECT SO THAT HE IS LIABLE TO RUN ANY DISTANCE THROUGH A CIVILIAN CROWD, KILL UNARMED SUSPECT WITHOUT MERCY OR QUESTIONS WHEN HE IS CAUGHT.

Was there police thought, preparation, intelligence? Can we assume that they HAVE such a thing?

THEY JUST ADDED ANOTHER INNOCENT VICTIM BY *CREATING A CIRCUMSTANCE* (FORFUXSAKE).

There is NO WAY anyone, even in the light of current dangerous times, can excuse the bodged-up
bungling of these 'professionals' whilst doing their job, and efficiently despatching a completely innocent man to the ultimate satisfaction of only the culpable terrorist organisation.

I'll make my point clear; THE POLICE CREATED THE SITUATION in an unsuspecting crowd of people, while they were operating a scheme that only they knew about. THEY WRONGLY SUSPECTED AN INNOCENT MAN AND KILLED HIM.

Excuse me, but how anyone can manage to point any blame on that man for reacting like he did to an outrageously stressful situation arising and surprising upon him, is rather odd, to me.

I really believe that many here are putting themselves in the place of a bunch of bungling idiots and thinking "I can see how I might also have done that".
Well, ok, NOW i can see how these opinions are reached.

 

[NMH]

Protest in Brazil after shooting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4714691.stm


Tony Blair has said he is "desperately sorry" but urged people to support the police in "difficult circumstances" in the wake of the London bombings.

.......................

Comment: Tony Blair has asked the public to support the Police shooting an innocent prson by mistake, or by negligence, carelessness, misjudgement, lack of intelligence, paranoid stupidity ....

Have we got the right people in charge?

The other Blair (Commissioner of the Met) said that other innocent people might get shot as well

What this says, is that terrorism has worked to make the people in charge run around like chickens with the heads cut off, and actually attack the traumatised body of said chickens!

Blair, in so many words; "the recent terrorism has created an understandable chaos amongst us, especially among the people in charge - in other words terrorism is working like a f***ing charm - and excuse our intelligence but it's further exposed as a shambles"

Too bad, and he is such a sincere and well-meaning fellow.

I wonder, how many of us here, would pick Blair out, in our schoolclass, as a choice 'leader'?

 

[zefarelly]

one small point, the guy that got shot was effetively here illegally . . .and theres thousands more like him . . I'd wager he ran away because of that reason, and therefore its a very expensive mistake to make, but what the bloody hell do you expect the police to do.

I want them to protect our people and protect our country. if you want to come here legally or otherwise and can't bebothered to learn a bit or rudimentary local language then tough shit, sorry!

in any case, any one in any language should understand stop police, and at the site of guns pointing at you what would you do, stick em up or run away

I'm firmly with the police and the government on this one, which is a rarity for me !

 

[keaton]

in any case, any one in any language should understand stop police, and at the site of guns pointing at you what would you do, stick em up or run away

They weren't in uniform, so the question is if men ran upto you with guns shouting at you would you run away?

The police operation was a shambles from start to finish, and now it seems everyone's using it as an excuse to talk about immigration which has bugger all to do with it

 

[tedebear]

everyone's using it as an excuse to talk about immigration which has bugger all to do with it

I'm not sure that it doesn't....

and I agree with the above sentiments re the fact that the Brazilian guy ran from the police - uniformed or plain they did identify themselves - and he should have understood that, so why did he run...

I'm sorry but running from the police with a backpack on my back makes me a target at the moment - and I fully understand the police shooting at this chap - if we place our police forces in a position where they have to have a referendum before they shoot someone then we'll have no protection...

The ONLY thing I would question is why they didn't shoot to maim instead of kill.....I wasn't there and neither were any of you so we'll never know....

 

[Hampden Park]

I'm not sure that it doesn't....

and I agree with the above sentiments re the fact that the Brazilian guy ran from the police - uniformed or plain they did identify themselves - and he should have understood that, so why did he run...

I'm sorry but running from the police with a backpack on my back makes me a target at the moment - and I fully understand the police shooting at this chap - if we place our police forces in a position where they have to have a referendum before they shoot someone then we'll have no protection...

The ONLY thing I would question is why they didn't shoot to maim instead of kill.....I wasn't there and neither were any of you so we'll never know....

they shot him in the head because, i believe, they thought he had some sort of belt on that contained explosives. so if they shot at his body he may well have gone off.

 

[London Calling]

I want to underline some basic and tangible facts here, especially as this debate is declining into semantics about "I don't like your text-attitude" and it's becoming tiresome reading;

The actions of the police have, unwittingly, resulted in an INNOCENT MAN DEAD.
There may be a plethora of reasons surrounding the circumstance, and we cannot know what the innocent man was thinking when faced (in a foreign country that is not known for on-the-spot executions) with a bunch of strangers NOT in uniforms apparently shouting at him in what is to him a foreign language.
Did he see their guns? perhaps.

Question; was he disorientated, afraid, wanting to run? and is that a surprising reaction??

Answer; apparently NOT, as a completely unrelated innocent man also took flight, and also got a gun to his head!!

What is inherent to this circumstance, after a terrorist act?
That people are nervous, jumpy, changing their demeanors.

What is London known for?
Lots of foreigners - many struggling with local language incidentally - many strangers, and in a climate of increased stress.

What is the WORST possible thing the police can do, when entrusted to guard and protect human life?
Answer; DRESS OUT OF UNIFORM AND ACT IN A THREATENING MANNER.

No no NMH, what is even worse than that simple action?
Answer; CARRY FIREARMS, WARN A SUSPECT SO THAT HE IS LIABLE TO RUN ANY DISTANCE THROUGH A CIVILIAN CROWD, KILL UNARMED SUSPECT WITHOUT MERCY OR QUESTIONS WHEN HE IS CAUGHT.

Was there police thought, preparation, intelligence? Can we assume that they HAVE such a thing?

THEY JUST ADDED ANOTHER INNOCENT VICTIM BY *CREATING A CIRCUMSTANCE* (FORFUXSAKE).

There is NO WAY anyone, even in the light of current dangerous times, can excuse the bodged-up
bungling of these 'professionals' whilst doing their job, and efficiently despatching a completely innocent man to the ultimate satisfaction of only the culpable terrorist organisation.

I'll make my point clear; THE POLICE CREATED THE SITUATION in an unsuspecting crowd of people, while they were operating a scheme that only they knew about. THEY WRONGLY SUSPECTED AN INNOCENT MAN AND KILLED HIM.

Excuse me, but how anyone can manage to point any blame on that man for reacting like he did to an outrageously stressful situation arising and surprising upon him, is rather odd, to me.

I really believe that many here are putting themselves in the place of a bunch of bungling idiots and thinking "I can see how I might also have done that".
Well, ok, NOW i can see how these opinions are reached.

Whilst I and I imagine others probably agree with the sentiments, I still don't go along with the running away bit, to go from a bus to a tube involves sustained running for at least 30 seconds. Past countless Underground staff, past the Uniformed Police who would have outside, past commuters etc.

AS you say the man did run. And yes that may have just been his reaction on that day only? On another day he may have been cool and stopped?

But what else could the Police do in the circumstances.

I imagine he was just being follwed to see who he may contact etc.

As he fulfilled his journey...especially approaching Stockwell...I imagine the Police/MI5 etc became increasingly excitable....soon they started to see him in a different light. A potential terrorist. As he approached Stockwell tube, the nearest thing to panic developed. As he ran an order of stop that man at all costs would have been ordered. Underground the Police would have been on their own where one split second would cost lives including their own

Yes it was a mistake.

But based on my scenario, what else could have been done!


Perhaps there no legitimate way to handle a situation like this?

LC

 

[tedebear]

they shot him in the head because, i believe, they thought he had some sort of belt on that contained explosives. so if they shot at his body he may well have gone off.

Thats what I assumed but since I wasn't there I don't know...

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The arrests that have taken place today seem to have involved non-lethal control methods - ie the Tazer. If the guy is wired, then obviously introducing an electrical current is not a good move, but for someone that they assess as arrestable but not a potential detonation, then the Tazer would seem to be a good idea. I know it carries it's own risks, but all forms of restraint can potentially be dangerous for the person concerned. Other than that, rubber bullets or shotgun beanbags could be used, but they do not immediately disable the person they are being fired at. Unfortunately, they need to stop the person completely, and I don't think that they have any other methods of doing this apart from high or low velocity rounds at the moment.

 

[CHAPPERS]

The ONLY thing I would question is why they didn't shoot to maim instead of kill.....I wasn't there and neither were any of you so we'll never know....

Because a maimed person can still set off a bomb.

 

[keaton]

I'm not sure that it doesn't....

and I agree with the above sentiments re the fact that the Brazilian guy ran from the police - uniformed or plain they did identify themselves - and he should have understood that, so why did he run...

I'm sorry but running from the police with a backpack on my back makes me a target at the moment - and I fully understand the police shooting at this chap - if we place our police forces in a position where they have to have a referendum before they shoot someone then we'll have no protection...

The ONLY thing I would question is why they didn't shoot to maim instead of kill.....I wasn't there and neither were any of you so we'll never know....

If they did identify themselves.
The police however could have checked how many residences the front door they were watching was for.
They could have stopped a suspected bomber taking a bus, for god's sake, it's pretty obvious the operation was bit of a shambles, and it's also pretty obvious that it would have been advisable to have uniformed officers present.
The fact that they held a gun to the driver's head and some of the witnesses comments suggest, the operation was carried out in a bravado manner

 

[alan partridge]

f***'s sake it's so simple

OK, let’s recap. We draw the gun from the holster, knock the safety catch off, there’s one in the chamber, and move and fire, and move and fire, and move and fire. The terrorist is disoriented from the stun grenade, he doesn’t know what’s going on. Remember the double-tap, bang bang. We have to neutralise the threat by incapacitating the target, we do that in two areas. The chest area here, anywhere down the central line, all the major organs are kept. We get one there, he’s going down. If you’re near enough, you can take a head shot. Again, he’s going down.

 

[aftershavedave]

f***'s sake it's so simple

OK, let’s recap. We draw the gun from the holster, knock the safety catch off, there’s one in the chamber, and move and fire, and move and fire, and move and fire. The terrorist is disoriented from the stun grenade, he doesn’t know what’s going on. Remember the double-tap, bang bang. We have to neutralise the threat by incapacitating the target, we do that in two areas. The chest area here, anywhere down the central line, all the major organs are kept. We get one there, he’s going down. If you’re near enough, you can take a head shot. Again, he’s going down.

you been watching rambo again?