Man Shot Dead On The Tube

[DJ Leon]

Lots of people talking about the police racial profiling - but this guy was Brazilian and was white (albeit with an olive skin). Given that, how can race be an issue - unless we're suggesting that we wasn't the right shade of white?

Also - though clearly the shooting was a 'tragic error' all we are doing on this thread is speculating. We don't know what intelligence there was on this man, what the exact circumstances leading up to his shooting were - what was shouted at him and whether he understood it etc etc. Until we know the ins and outs, I'm trusting (and hoping) that the Police's actions, given the circumstances, were appropriate.

 

[clapham_gull]

Lot of interesting questions posed in The Evening Standard tonight. Like:

- why didn't the police quietly (or not quietly) collar the bloke on his walk through a number of side streets if they thought he had a bomb?

- why did they let him get onto a bus if they thought he had a bomb?

- why did they not intercept him before he could jump the barrier and get as far as actually onto a tube train if they thought he had a bomb?

Personally I'm 100% convinced they DID think he had a bomb (wearing a big coat on a hot Summer's day coming out of a building under surveillance must have made their minds up there and then). But what happened from that point on was one long f*** up - whether he was carrying a bomb or whether he wasn't.

But easy to be wise after the event.

I read that too, and think from reading that article I come to the same conclusion.

They were at the address since it was found on one the rucksacks. But it appears (like most houses in South London) it was split into flats with a common entrance. My flat is exactly like that.

They followed him out of the house and some officers (but not the officers who chased him?) got on the bus with him from Tulse Hill to Stockwell.

That's a new piece of information from the press.

It was when he left the bus at Stockwell that they called in a presumably present armed response team for support (I think I read that)

To me it seems that he wasn't a suspected bomber at this point at all, but a suspected accomplice.

( The statement that said he was "linked" ? )

They had ample opportunity to stop him in a quiet residential street, well before even boarding the bus.

In my opinion the answer to the question "why was he allowed to board the bus" is..

(a) He wasn't deemed an immediate threat to either the people on the bus or the officers that got on with him.

(b) They thought that they would gain intelligence by following him, perhaps he would lead them to the actual bombers.

Somewhere and somehow between the Stockwell bus stop and the tube carriage his "status" changed.

I suspect that's what the inquiry will uncover.

 

[eastlondonseagull]

Not read all of this thread, but I think they simply had the wrong flat under surveillance.

It just so happened that his visa had expired, hence he was illegal and faced deportation if caught. Unfortunately, he panicked when he realised people were onto him. But the original police surveillance, imo, was plain shit.

 

[clapham_gull]

Jack Straw in the news conference this evening

"I haven't got any precise information on his immigration status, my understanding is he was here lawfully,"

 

[clapham_gull]

.. and I sit quite uneasy with "if the bloke hadn't run he'd alive" thing.

Police are not going to start shooting people who just run away, if that was the case they would have been numerous shootings in the West End this afternoon.

The fact is the reason the Police shot him was because he was suspected of being something to do with the bombings, was allowed to board a bus and get near a tube station, then ran away.

There is obviously a fine balance between getting information from the "suspect" that could lead to further arrests and from stopping a suspect committing a crime that could lead to people's deaths.

The police not only got the balance wrong, but violently swung from one end of the balance to the other. That's what I think lead to the tragic death.

Not simply the fact that he "ran away"

 

[London Irish]

Lots of people talking about the police racial profiling - but this guy was white (albeit with an olive skin).

Which is exactly how you could describe most Asians. The fact is, look at every eye-witness comment following the shooting, and nearly every one describe him as of Asian appearance.

 

[clapham_gull]

Which is exactly how you could describe most Asians. The fact is, look at every eye-witness comment following the shooting, and nearly every one describe him as of Asian appearance.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more witnesses because the train would have been quite full.

Its amazing what people "think" they've seen. The man has been described as "fat" and I've heard another account on the radio that he was sitting down when the Police entered.

I wondering if many of those witnesses really did "think" they saw an Asian.

 

[Gully]

Q: What have the Met Police and your local beauty salon got in common?

A: They both do Brazilians!!!

 

[Gerbil]

That's an excuse to fall back on racial profiling, which will be disastrous in fighting the bombers, because it will alienate the Muslim community and not produce the intelligence that we need.

In a way, I'm very much less interested in yours and other white people's view of this Stockwell shooting, because you are not likely to be in a position to grass up some stupid young kid about to fall into Al Quada's orbit. These ordinary people from the immigrant communities are the ones who could perform the vital function in stopping the bombers and I'm more interested in whether they can philosophically shrug their shoulders at the greater risk of armed police following their sisters or cousins around London and blow their heads off if they make a slightly wrong move.

And by the way, the shoe bomber Reid was mixed race (Afro-Caribbean) not white as has been stated in this thread. Whitey is sitting pretty happy with hair-trigger shooting-to-kill police running around the place at the moment.

You do talk some bollox don't you.

How lucky are we that you're not running the country(I'm sure you'd love to).
Just think if you were PM you could patronise poeple en masse!!!

Just accept the reality that just this once maybe you're not in the majority with your opinion on this subject and some people are actually daring to tell you so!
Not before time in my book.

 

[London Irish]

"Daring to tell me" - ah, you poor little petal. Glad you had the courage to speak up.

 

[Gerbil]

"Daring to tell me" - ah, you poor little petal. Glad you had the courage to speak up.

My point exactly.

 

[London Irish]

The BBC Newsnight discussion was pretty good, more or less reflected the divisions on here - without the footy-style colourful language of course.

 

[Safeway]

I think if I was ever stuck on a bus/train with London Irish, I'd WANT some Arab to blow the thing up.

 

[Gerbil]

 

[Edward Scissorhands]

 

[London Irish]

I think if I was ever stuck on a bus/train with London Irish, I'd WANT some Arab to blow the thing up.

Excellent, I always new there would be fireworks if ever we meet sweetie

 

[Brighton Breezy]

I am torn on this subject.

Part of me says that the guy shouldnt have run, that the police have a job to do and that, tragically, these things do happen.

Another side of me asks the question as to why police did not stop him before he got on a bus or entered a tube station if they considered him to be a threat.

Shoot to kill is needed but only as a last resort and I think in this case they could have apprehended him far sooner.

 

[clapham_gull]

I am torn on this subject.

Part of me says that the guy shouldnt have run, that the police have a job to do and that, tragically, these things do happen.

Another side of me asks the question as to why police did not stop him before he got on a bus or entered a tube station if they considered him to be a threat.

Shoot to kill is needed but only as a last resort and I think in this case they could have apprehended him far sooner.

My point exactly - except as from my previous post it's quite obvious that he WASN'T seen as an immediate threat until he left the bus. They didn't just let him get on the bus, according to reports tonight they followed him on.

 

[Brighton Breezy]

It is a terrible situation but I guess the flipside is that they let him run off, he turns out to be a bomber and kills a few hundred people.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

i've read so many threads involving LI and i'm still completely baffled as to where, what appears to be an educated person, gets his views from.

are you a guardian employee or perhaps a teacher, a product of one of those "teacher training colleges"? where the only training appears to be in extreme left-wing views.

i always find it amusing that a party that holds the pre-tense of always working for the working-class, has the most mp's that haven't worked a day in their lives. and a leader who went to public school.

there's a real world out there face upto it

you really worry me