Man Shot Dead On The Tube

[London Calling]

There is a suspicion with the police that "they all look the same". That is at the back of my mind. Probably unfair I know - but I would like to see comparison pictures of who they thought he was.

People act in strange and different ways when confronted with the police - take that bloke in Whitehall arrested on the day of the second bombings. He was all over the airwaves and papers - but nothing to do with the investigation.

However so far we had one caibbean suicide bomber, the shoe bomber was white british....so I hope that our enforcement services are being a bit more open minded.

I imagine what is also going on here is that the Police can't realistically tell us their survellience plans. Let alone what the MI 5 bods etc are up to!

You're right Uncle B, someone could agrue with me!

LC

 

[Uncle Buck]

You're right Uncle B, someone could agrue with me!

LC

Do you know what you are letting yourself in for with invitations like that...

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

he had reason to run... visa expired and threat of deportation. Whatever the case just someone running is not reason to shoot ... not one BUT FIVE rounds at point blank into the head. As we understand they already had him...we were not there so we don't know whetehr they had his hands tied down... to exonerate based on our (possibly false) assumption that he MIGHT have beeen trying to grab something... that's ridiculous. We don't know enouigh and never will know enough to exonerate the policemen involved but we should all be able to say that this was wrong and there can never be a precedent for this.

 

[London Irish]

DKM, if they actually thought he was a known terrorist suspect, that would a plausible reason to send the armed police after him. I suspect that is not the reason, as embarrasing as mistaken identity cases are, this would offer a good excuse and that information would have already been leaked into the public domian by now.

The reality is, similar to the 4 CCTV guys in the abortive bombings, the police didn't have a clue who the guy they were tailing was but they just sent a "shoot-to-kill" squad after him, just to be on the safe side.

The consequences for future Muslim community co-operation with the police to defeat the bombers will be disastrous UNLESS clear public confidence-building measures are taken to ensure this tragedy NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

 

[London Irish]

Stupidity is not a crime though

Well actually, you've just made it a crime punishable by death, as long you fit the racial profile that the police are currently working to.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Well actually, you've just made it a crime punishable by death, as long you fit the racial profile that the police are currently working to.

How do you know they are working to a racial profile, that is your opinion or interpretation, not fact. As has been said earlier some of the previous terriost attacks have been carried out by a white man and an afro-caribean person.

 

[Highfields Seagull]

Stupidity a crime? What a great idea, I'd vote for that

 

[Easy 10]

I'm sorry, but you cannot blame this bloke for being shot 5 times in the head.
What they should not have done is followed and intimidated an almost-completely innocent man. Why he ran, we cannot truly understand, but he is not responsible for his own death. 20 or so people chased him and then he was shot 5 times in the face. That is not his fault. That is purely the responsibility of the police, their poor intelligence, how they acted and their preconceptions of a non-white man in a big coat.
I can understand they are under pressure because of repeated failure to protect people and everyone is tense, but to make out that this man's reactions are what killed him is ridiculous and insulting.

The police are probably tracking and following dozens of "almost-completely-innocent" men every day, and nothing comes of it (although I'm not sure how someone can ever be almost innocent, but thats another matter). We never hear of these though, because they're taken in for questioning and then released. Its all part of their job, ie doing all that they can to try to keep you and me safe on the streets.

The police, quite rightly, will not come out of this whiter-than-white. A horrible mistake has been made, but it was made in the course of trying to protect people. The police were wrong in the judgement call they made, and the brazilian was wrong to have ran. You can't pin the blame solely on one or the other - it was a combination of the circmustances that led to his death.

The simple fact remains though - if he hadn't have run, he wouldn't have died.

 

[clapham_gull]

There were actually 8 shots to the head.

The inquiry has now opened and a few details are being reported.

I can sum up my thoughts like this. His actions did directly lead to his death since as he was strongly suspected of being a bomber, the moment he legged it onto a tube (under the current circumstances) he signed his own death warrant.

However, he should never have been a suspect and followed by armed officers in the first place. That's not being "better safe than sorry" - that's just being crap. Shocking bit of work by the MET there. That wasn't a split second decision was it ?

 

[London Calling]

Just because he was not a known terrorist ...does not mean (unfortuantely) that the Police can operate the normal rules of engagement with terrorist "suspects". What was actually known of the 4 original bombers and the latest bunch.

Were they known to be mass murderers. NO. Did anyone suspect them. NO. Even when we have people with terrorist history, it is nearly impossible to keep constant tabs. These people don't dress in daglow yellow with a "I'm a terrorist bill board".

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

DKM, if they actually thought he was a known terrorist suspect, that would a plausible reason to send the armed police after him. I suspect that is not the reason, as embarrasing as mistaken identity cases are, this would offer a good excuse and that information would have already been leaked into the public domian by now.

It wasn't him they were after - but someone who lives in the same building.

We had the same thing happen to my wife and I at the time of the Hyde Park bomb when we were living in Hampstead - I was away overnight but the armed anti-terrorist squad booted the door in at 2am and charged through our flat. They were after the Irish bloke in the top flat. This stuff happens.

I am just pleased my wife didn't greet them with "Toppa da mornin".

 

[London Irish]

Just because he was not a known terrorist ...does not mean (unfortuantely) that the Police can operate the normal rules of engagement with terrorist "suspects". What was actually known of the 4 original bombers and the latest bunch.

Were they known to be mass murderers. NO. Did anyone suspect them. NO. Even when we have people with terrorist history, it is nearly impossible to keep constant tabs. These people don't dress in daglow yellow with a "I'm a terrorist bill board".

That's an excuse to fall back on racial profiling, which will be disastrous in fighting the bombers, because it will alienate the Muslim community and not produce the intelligence that we need.

In a way, I'm very much less interested in yours and other white people's view of this Stockwell shooting, because you are not likely to be in a position to grass up some stupid young kid about to fall into Al Quada's orbit. These ordinary people from the immigrant communities are the ones who could perform the vital function in stopping the bombers and I'm more interested in whether they can philosophically shrug their shoulders at the greater risk of armed police following their sisters or cousins around London and blow their heads off if they make a slightly wrong move.

And by the way, the shoe bomber Reid was mixed race (Afro-Caribbean) not white as has been stated in this thread. Whitey is sitting pretty happy with hair-trigger shooting-to-kill police running around the place at the moment.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Whitey is sitting pretty happy with hair-trigger shooting-to-kill police running around the place at the moment.

LI, i normally find your postings quite well thought out, but on this i believe you are getting carried away.


The bottom line is it was an almighty cock-up, but it wasn't a pre-meditated shoot-to-kill despite your opinion (not Fact) to the contrary.

A day before, a bomb was found with documents relating to this address. The address was kept under surveillance, a suspect was followed and an attempt was made to stop and question or arrest the suspect. He ran from the Police, down to an underground train, (just like the ones that got bombed). A split second decision was made as to whether he was a bomber or a brazilian electrician on an overdue visa.

Wrong decision, tragic yes, premeditated hair-trigger shooting-to-kill No.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Whitey is sitting pretty happy with hair-trigger shooting-to-kill police running around the place at the moment.

that just sums you up that does

you f***ing twat.


I assume that would have gone throuigh the minds of all those "whitey's " that were killed two weeks ago

 

[London Irish]

that just sums you up that does

you f***ing twat.


I assume that would have gone throuigh the minds of all those "whitey's " that were killed two weeks ago

And your inarticulate ranting abuse doesn't sum you up? Hit a nerve, have I? Not surprised.

 

[London Irish]

A day before, a bomb was found with documents relating to this address.

But he didn't come from that address under surveillance, he came from the same apartment building. Intelligence work like this is as clownish as it is inexcusable.

Sadly, there will be a racial divide about how seriously we are taking the shooting of this innocent man and how much contortion we are prepared to indulge in to minimise the scale of this tragedy to the family of this man, and much more importantly, to the ongoing political war against the bombers.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The police seemed a tad trigger happy once they were given the authority to shoot him though. He was shot eight times, the majority of these at point blank range whilst standing over him. I aggree it was not shot-to-kill, more like an execution.

The police are using the public safety arguement to defend the shooting. Firing 8 bullets into a busy train isn't overly safe. I know these were at close range but richochets can happen quite easily. I feel they got a bit pumped up from the chase and a bit carried away when the decision to shoot him was made.

Being a football fan I see the police overeact many a time.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

We had the same thing happen to my wife and I at the time of the Hyde Park bomb when we were living in Hampstead - I was away overnight but the armed anti-terrorist squad booted the door in at 2am and charged through our flat. They were after the Irish bloke in the top flat. This stuff happens.

I had almost forgotten about this - it has got me thinking about it. He was a an odd bod the guy in the flat upstairs - but he claimed he had had a run-in with some bill over a traffic incident - and that was why he was under suspicion. Who knows.

They looked through everything before they gabe the flat the all clear though - including looking through the cereal packets and my dirty washing.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Lot of interesting questions posed in The Evening Standard tonight. Like:

- why didn't the police quietly (or not quietly) collar the bloke on his walk through a number of side streets if they thought he had a bomb?

- why did they let him get onto a bus if they thought he had a bomb?

- why did they not intercept him before he could jump the barrier and get as far as actually onto a tube train if they thought he had a bomb?

Personally I'm 100% convinced they DID think he had a bomb (wearing a big coat on a hot Summer's day coming out of a building under surveillance must have made their minds up there and then). But what happened from that point on was one long f*** up - whether he was carrying a bomb or whether he wasn't.

But easy to be wise after the event.

 

[Raphael Meade]

Personally I'm 100% convinced they DID think he had a bomb (wearing a big coat on a hot Summer's day coming out of a building under surveillance must have made their minds up there and then). But what happened from that point on was one long f*** up - whether he was carrying a bomb or whether he wasn't.

But easy to be wise after the event.

exactly.

the day after bombings, a LOT of circumstances come together to make them think he was carrying a bomb, even right down to wearing an electricans belt, etc... the guy probably thinking they were immigration and doing a runner, being unlucky enough to live in the same building as someone connected, etc.

as AWFUL as it is to say it, it seems that so many things came together, that a mistake was made... no-one knows all of what went on but i can't really see there is anyone who can take the blame.

plenty of people have legged it from the police, yes it was a tense time, but to him stopping still meant being deported. he didn't know they were going to 'shoot to kill'.

on the security services side, like has been said many times, it was a tough call and it did seem like he was about to blow lots of people up.

tragic innit.