York Mosque shows the way for all of us

[Pretty pink fairy]

From early on you have been shown to be just as narrow minded as any EDL member.
You claimed you could never blame a Muslim (including a Muslim extremist) for a bit of spray paint because you were not the type to point the finger yet you blamed it on EDL members from the start.

You banged on about all these ATTACKS on Muslims which were happening all over the country & it turns out its things written on Facebook which you are then pulled up on & you continue to try & make out that you see these ATTACKS as terrible & some kind of counter argument to anybody that questions Muslim fundamentalist or their wrong doings but when it comes criticising muslim jihadists for killing children then you play it down because it didnt happen here.
How can anybody take you seriously ?
You can't even admit you are wrong regarding the graffiti despite the fact you said that you would.

I'd like to call you a prick but I find you such a joke I can't actually see the point in letting your laughably unbalanced views even bring me to the point of insulting you because you practically insult yourself when you post.

DON'T WASTE YOUR BREATH, YOU'RE SPOT ON BUT HEY HE LIVES IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC SO WHY SHOULD HE GIVE A TOSS ABOUT THE UK FFS ,come back dave all is forgiven
regards
DR

 

[Chris001]

Incredible lack of understanding of Middle Eastern affairs demonstrated here, I don't know where to start - so I'm not even going to bother!

Just to give you some food for thought though - Egypt, Libya, Syria were secular states - but Western intervention means that none of them will be for much longer.

Secular? Would I be safe to go and preach Christianity in any of those places? before or after western intervention. Whilst doing it would I enjoy a welfare system, a pension, free health care, an education and enjoy equal rights for all?

 

[daveinprague]

Assad was killing 10s of thousands of his people before this civil war started? A civil war started by Islamic fundamentalists?

Do I believe Assad over the British Government, or the media? All have lied to us before. I dont like despots or dictators, but thats for the people in those countries to decide isnt it?

I have a paranoid conspiracy theory?? eh? Of what?

Lots of 'white' boys' (cant help noticing the tone of that) are angry, and sad about it. I include myself. Did I feel a need to march with
racists, and fascists, keen to exploit, as ive seen on one EDL page this 'opportunity'. No, not really.

I dont 'casually' accept jihadists in the UK, but im grown up enough to realise they are there, and exist. Tell me how EDL will solve the issue exactly? I was kind of looking toward the British security services to deal with these people, not some old, drunk fascists?

I think you need to look at what the EDL actually say, rather than believe you share the same views, and values. Seriously.
I keep being told that...oh yeah, theres a few racists, but the majority blah blah...

This is the Newcastle EDL Regional organiser, speaking after Tommy Tango ...the week after the event.
The crowd, and the EDL stewards, who the EDL tell the world will root out racism seem
to be cheering and applauding to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuEfDKvv3DQ

but hey, its only a few bad apples.

 

[Dandyman]

This is probably too long to paste but worth a read for a more in-depth view on what is going on in Syria: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n11/patrick-cockburn/is-it-the-end-of-sykes-picot

 

[Dandyman]

DON'T WASTE YOUR BREATH, YOU'RE SPOT ON BUT HEY HE LIVES IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC SO WHY SHOULD HE GIVE A TOSS ABOUT THE UK FFS ,come back dave all is forgiven
regards
DR

Brilliant parody of a racist cretin.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Brilliant parody of a racist cretin.

but it's the truth , LIVES IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC BUT STICKS UP FOR THE LOONEY LEFT unwashed In this country , yep daves right we should just roll over and except what goes on in this country and get on with it, after all every things RUNNING NICE AND SMOOTHLY,still tree hugging in lewes by the way
regards
DR

 

[Dandyman]

but it's the truth , LIVES IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC BUT STICKS UP FOR THE LOONEY LEFT unwashed In this country , yep daves right we should just roll over and except what goes on in this country and get on with it, after all every things RUNNING NICE AND SMOOTHLY,still tree hugging in lewes by the way
regards
DR

And they say satire is dead.

 

[cunning fergus]

You raise many valid and interesting points Fergus, and many that I agree with. My point about 1930's Germany was less about the exact socio-political conditions of the age and more about a general demonising of a culture as a scapegoat for whatever the current ills are.

When deciding on which parts of Islamic Fundamentalism we should confront we get down to some of the real problems. Many of the misogynistic aspects of Islamic culture make me very uncomfortable, as they are the starting point for the justification for the brutal actions of the Taliban in the name of Sharia Law. Do I think we should ban the burka then? No, I don't, as I believe we can accommodate it within a moderate form of Islam where it is not the thin end of the wedge. That may be naïve I concede. I see it though as a bit of a side show, something easily attacked by those whose only mantra is freedom of expression, whatever the cost. Would I be happy to have more Muslims residing in the UK who are sensitive to traditional British sensitivities? Sure I would. But that's a two-way street that isn't helped by our foreign policies of recent years.

The demonisation of Jews was nothing new in Germany in the 30s; anti semitism in old "Germany" is as old as the bible. The Nazis didn't invent anti semitism in the 30s they merely fanned the centuries old embers. Unfortunately for the majority of Jews post WW1 many Germans attributed the rise of traitorous Bolshevism to leading Jewish activists who were involved in bringing down the German state that precipitated the surrender of Germany in 1918. An unfortunate interpretation of events as it turned out but then centuries old ingrained anti semitism in Germany is still nothing like the current situation of Islam in he UK.

I agree that challenge is difficult however it was you that indicated it had to happen in a context that did not encourage the fascists. You recognise that Islam has misogynist tendencies, so how is that confronted in the UK? Surely the burka is emblematic of a medieval outlook that has absolutely no point of reference in the UK? How do you think Emaline Pankhurst would assess the position?

Whilst I appreciate you see it as a side show it nevertheless goes to the heart to how others who do not posses your benevolent outlook feel when confronted with the burka on the streets of the UK. As indicated previously to many it is offensive and representative of a form of cultural occupation..........to them it's imposition will feel very much like a one way street............what is the benefit of the burka to wider UK society? Seriously...........what do you think? I can't see one myself.

But if not the burka should we ban arranged marriages to second cousins that creates a disturbing rate of genetic disorders in the happy couples progenies...........how would you feel about confronting that particular cultural issue?

PS. I will ignore your apologist sensitivities that the UK's foreign policy has created this problem because that gives lie to the prospect that you don't want to confront at all.............which can't be true.............confronted are not appeasers. If it was it would be the first link to the 30s I would agree with.

 

[Bold Seagull]

They, like many people are angry at what happened, but you see that as exploitation. We’ve just witnessed the savagery of extremist Muslim boys when their angry, extreme angry white boys want to lay a wreath and you’re up in arms! - they weren’t smashing up a mosque, they weren’t cutting of someone’s head in public, they wanted to lay a wreath FFS!

I don't see any difference in those terrorists murdering a soldier, to the idiot that killed two female police officers in Manchester, to the IRA blowing up bombs in our streets. The big difference is that the EDL want to turn this into a fight against Islam. We seem to have forgotten, that it wasn't 2 decades ago that white Christians were killing each other and civilians with great regularity in Northern Island, yet somehow we never marched to exclude Catholicism and Protestantism from our shores.

Now we have a group like the EDL suggesting the blame for an isolated terrorist act lies with an entire religion, and their ultimate proposition is their expulsion from the country. There was another political party that shared this ideology, the defeat of which at the cost of millions of lives was ultimately started 3 days from now, 69 years ago.

I too find it abhorrent that those standing for fascism should lay wreaths on the graves of those that gave their lives fighting fascism.

'Many British people' - I doubt that very much. The majority of people of this country know what the EDL are, and know who the people are that support them.

 

[BadFish]

I guess that is the 'Party Line' at least....

The fact that often these dictatorships were put in place by Western Governments should be mentioned. If we had left well alone and had not been chasing control of cheap oil then we would not have so many angry extremists .

 

[BadFish]

In such arguments both camps can quote stats and links and 'evidence' to support their claims, and all that happens is that the arguments go around in never ending circles with no positive end result.

What is clear, to me anyway, is that in these difficult times a lot of people want a target for their frustration and anger at the world. The danger here, as again history has shown time and again, is that the recipient culture chosen is then portrayed as an evil homogenous unit and victimised accordingly (think Germany in the 1930s). Thus normal, moderate, law-abiding Muslims end up being targeted alongside Islamic Fundamentalists, as they are seen as part of the problem and therefore not entitled to the same basic human rights as everyone else.

So the challenge remains to confront Islamic fundamentalism without playing into the hands of the Fascists, racists and bigots who would like nothing more than all Muslims to be gone, one way or another. And anyone who honestly believes that that is not the desired endgame of the EDL is deluded.

Excellent post. Im my opinion, as we take the easy route, direct our anger at all Muslims and blame them for what is done by extremists or blame them for not standing up to them. We are creating and us and them divide and marginalising more and more decent moderate people and driving them into the hands of the Jihadists.

 

[Dandyman]

But if not the burka should we ban arranged marriages to second cousins that creates a disturbing rate of genetic disorders in the happy couples progenies.........

That'll be most of the Royal Families of Europe screwed then,

 

[BadFish]

The demonisation of Jews was nothing new in Germany in the 30s; anti semitism in old "Germany" is as old as the bible. The Nazis didn't invent anti semitism in the 30s they merely fanned the centuries old embers. Unfortunately for the majority of Jews post WW1 many Germans attributed the rise of traitorous Bolshevism to leading Jewish activists who were involved in bringing down the German state that precipitated the surrender of Germany in 1918. An unfortunate interpretation of events as it turned out but then centuries old ingrained anti semitism in Germany is still nothing like the current situation of Islam in he UK.

I agree that challenge is difficult however it was you that indicated it had to happen in a context that did not encourage the fascists. You recognise that Islam has misogynist tendencies, so how is that confronted in the UK? Surely the burka is emblematic of a medieval outlook that has absolutely no point of reference in the UK? How do you think Emaline Pankhurst would assess the position?

Whilst I appreciate you see it as a side show it nevertheless goes to the heart to how others who do not posses your benevolent outlook feel when confronted with the burka on the streets of the UK. As indicated previously to many it is offensive and representative of a form of cultural occupation..........to them it's imposition will feel very much like a one way street............what is the benefit of the burka to wider UK society? Seriously...........what do you think? I can't see one myself.

But if not the burka should we ban arranged marriages to second cousins that creates a disturbing rate of genetic disorders in the happy couples progenies...........how would you feel about confronting that particular cultural issue?

PS. I will ignore your apologist sensitivities that the UK's foreign policy has created this problem because that gives lie to the prospect that you don't want to confront at all.............which can't be true.............confronted are not appeasers. If it was it would be the first link to the 30s I would agree with.

I always find it interesting that people who have tired to find and talk about the reasons for Islamic extremism are dismissed as apologists. I don't believe that islamic findamentalists hate the west for no reason. If this is true they we are ****ed and the current trajectory will continue as we continue to divide and marginalise Muslims into the hands of the jihadists and the war that they desire becomes an inevitability.

The answer lies in us asking why they are so angry with the West? Did we do something wrong? Are we still doing something wrong? Can we make changes in what we do that begin to calm the situation down?

I know I will be written off as an apologist by some but my faith in human nature will not allow me to believe that a group of people would hate and wage war on the west with no good reason (in their opinion). The key to solving any dispute or conflict is to listen to each side and find a compromise.

 

[cunning fergus]

That'll be most of the Royal Families of Europe screwed then,

The NHS didn't exist when those Royal families were all at it..............thank God it was set up to help sustain those victims of this quaint practice.................a price no doubt we are all prepared to pay in the interests of not stigmatising our most vibrant allies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/16/immigrationpolicy.politics

Given the recent focus on the dangers to the unborn if pregnant women smoke or drink I am surprised this issue has not been more widely publicised............it's certainly a poser?

 

[cunning fergus]

I always find it interesting that people who have tired to find and talk about the reasons for Islamic extremism are dismissed as apologists. I don't believe that islamic findamentalists hate the west for no reason. If this is true they we are ****ed and the current trajectory will continue as we continue to divide and marginalise Muslims into the hands of the jihadists and the war that they desire becomes an inevitability.

The answer lies in us asking why they are so angry with the West? Did we do something wrong? Are we still doing something wrong? Can we make changes in what we do that begin to calm the situation down?

I know I will be written off as an apologist by some but my faith in human nature will not allow me to believe that a group of people would hate and wage war on the west with no good reason (in their opinion). The key to solving any dispute or conflict is to listen to each side and find a compromise.

Alright then...........why are they so angry?

 

[BadFish]

Alright then...........why are they so angry?

Obviously I am not one of them and you would probably have to ask them but off the top of my head.

The West funding civil wars and then putting in compliant leaders.
The positioning of troops in the Muslim Holy lands (Bin Laden was quite open about this being part of the reason for 9!!).
The Illegal war in Iraq.
The bombing of Irag between Gulf Wars 1 and 2.
Palestine

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

Terrorism is "a response to a build up of grievances, real or imagined. Therefore one cannot drive out terrorism without dealing with the grievances that lead to it" says Dr. J.D. Woodberry in his article "War on Terrorism." In that article he gives five main reasons why they hate us.

"The Israel-Palestine conflict. Frequent news coverage of rock-throwing Palestinian youths, and some suicide bombs, against vastly superior Israeli firepower with far greater numbers of Palestinians killed."

"Iraq"

"The Muslims sense of being humiliated and in danger."

Muslims perceive that the West has contributed to the corroding of "morality with the flow of alcoholism, drugs, materialism, sexual immorality, and arrogance through movies, television"

Americans with their superior power talked about democracy, but did not back it up when it did not serve their purposes, e.g. Algeria elections.

http://www.nabeeljabbour.com/articles/why-hate.html

I am not suggesting for a moment that their is no religious nuttery involved in their actions and I certainly am not going to attempt to justify their actions because i disagree with them. However I wonder if their are some changes that our governments can make to improve the situation.

Otherwise how do we address the issue?

 

[cunning fergus]

Obviously I am not one of them and you would probably have to ask them but off the top of my head.

The West funding civil wars and then putting in compliant leaders.
The positioning of troops in the Muslim Holy lands (Bin Laden was quite open about this being part of the reason for 9!!).
The Illegal war in Iraq.
The bombing of Irag between Gulf Wars 1 and 2.
Palestine

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

Terrorism is "a response to a build up of grievances, real or imagined. Therefore one cannot drive out terrorism without dealing with the grievances that lead to it" says Dr. J.D. Woodberry in his article "War on Terrorism." In that article he gives five main reasons why they hate us.

"The Israel-Palestine conflict. Frequent news coverage of rock-throwing Palestinian youths, and some suicide bombs, against vastly superior Israeli firepower with far greater numbers of Palestinians killed."

"Iraq"

"The Muslims sense of being humiliated and in danger."

Muslims perceive that the West has contributed to the corroding of "morality with the flow of alcoholism, drugs, materialism, sexual immorality, and arrogance through movies, television"

Americans with their superior power talked about democracy, but did not back it up when it did not serve their purposes, e.g. Algeria elections.

http://www.nabeeljabbour.com/articles/why-hate.html

I am not suggesting for a moment that their is no religious nuttery involved in their actions and I certainly am not going to attempt to justify their actions because i disagree with them. However I wonder if their are some changes that our governments can make to improve the situation.

Otherwise how do we address the issue?

Right so if these are the motives, what do we have to change and what do we have to compromise to make sure we are safe?

 

[Soulman]

You dont have to tell me they have done those things. I already know.
What has 'chopping up' people got to do with it...Do you need EDL to 'highlight' that for you as well?
We all KNOW about fundamental Islamists...some of us dont need racist fascists to 'highlight' it for us.

Keep defending fascists.

 

[Soulman]

I see you cherry pick your concerns with regard to what goes on in other countries in order to suit your argument – you’re not concerned when Muslims kill Muslims but you are deeply concerned by drones accidently killing them.

Seeing as Muslim on Muslim atrocities are of no concern to you, you won’t be interested that the Syrian president has killed tens of thousands over the last couple of years, without any help from us.

Mali, Libya, Iraq, Iran etc, all over the world Muslims are killing each other. Our government and its allies fight these dictatorships so that the people of these countries can enjoy the same freedoms that we have - here in Britain we provide welfare, pensions, free health care, education and equal rights for everyone.

The same Britain that allows you to freely to spout your contrary views in is the same Britain that fights dictatorships – thinking about it, you and the UAF try to suppress freedom of speech - Isn’t that dictatorship?

Iran has cut up to £15 million a month in funding for Hamas as punishment for the movement's backing for the uprising in Syria, the Palestinian Islamist group's leaders have admitted.
I suppose Galloway could always help out with a few bob.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...91629/Iran-cuts-Hamas-funding-over-Syria.html

 

[Soulman]

I will type it slowly for you, I said, it could just as well be an idiot, or a rightwing group...hope typing that slower helped you...


There are 200 documented attacks on muslims since this sad event. Im fairly certain I said 200...never 500....10 mosques have been attacked, there have been threats to many more.
There have been individual attacks, and attacks on property.

Now come on, iv'e already posted this is hogwash....remember.

The TRUTH about the 'wave of attacks' on Muslims after Woolwich killing: Most of the incidents recorded were offensive messages on Facebook and Twitter.
Apparently not one person has been treated for an attack.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ch-murder.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2V8UZ7tIy

http://www.newshour24.com/UK/74vvcyv...ok-Twitter.htm