York Mosque shows the way for all of us

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Jesus f@cking Christ mate, you need to get a life. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'yeah whatever'? Just get on with it FFS

I think that is better directed at the poster who turns up on someone's doorstep.

 

[Chris001]

So are you saying fascists are justified through the existence of extremists?

It was in response to Dave in Pragues original quote:

No fascists marching on our streets, hoping to be a public nuisance, then no UAF. Quite easy really.

He's saying the UAF are justified through the existence of the EDL, I'm taking it a stage further back. And yes, I am saying that the EDL exist because of Jihadists.

 

[daveinprague]

It was in response to Dave in Pragues original quote:

No fascists marching on our streets, hoping to be a public nuisance, then no UAF. Quite easy really.

He's saying the UAF are justified through the existence of the EDL, I'm taking it a stage further back. And yes, I am saying that the EDL exist because of Jihadists.

The EDL fascist members used to belong to the BNP, and the NF before them...its the same people.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It was in response to Dave in Pragues original quote:

No fascists marching on our streets, hoping to be a public nuisance, then no UAF. Quite easy really.

He's saying the UAF are justified through the existence of the EDL, I'm taking it a stage further back. And yes, I am saying that the EDL exist because of Jihadists.

They've been lurking around our streets in one form or another long before most had even heard of Jihadists.

 

[daveinprague]

I see you cherry pick your concerns with regard to what goes on in other countries in order to suit your argument – you’re not concerned when Muslims kill Muslims but you are deeply concerned by drones accidently killing them.

Seeing as Muslim on Muslim atrocities are of no concern to you, you won’t be interested that the Syrian president has killed tens of thousands over the last couple of years, without any help from us.

Mali, Libya, Iraq, Iran etc, all over the world Muslims are killing each other. Our government and its allies fight these dictatorships so that the people of these countries can enjoy the same freedoms that we have - here in Britain we provide welfare, pensions, free health care, education and equal rights for everyone.

The same Britain that allows you to freely to spout your contrary views in is the same Britain that fights dictatorships – thinking about it, you and the UAF try to suppress freedom of speech - Isn’t that dictatorship?

If people of any religion are killing each other in their own countries, no it doesnt concern me. Its a sad state of the world which has had war in it, somewhere, all of my life.
I do get concerned, when MY country pokes its nose in, as it never ends well.

As for Syria, yes, im very interested to know, why my country is considering arming the rebels who Assad has been fighting, for the last couple of years, even when they KNOW many of the 'rebels' are Sunni Jihadists, with links to Al Qaeda, maybe you can help me with that?

Feel free to let me know how I am 'suppressing freedom of speech' exactly? Its very theatrical, but im interested.

 

[daveinprague]

Can you point out where I've said they have done good things ?
Can you point out where they have done anything on par with chopping people up ?

You dont have to worry about anything as far as I'm concerned but we can all sit & have a laugh about how you blatantly pick & choose the things that are right & wrong & coincidently it's only the things YOU CLAIM the EDL have done that you are willing to point out.

Actually don't point anything out in reply because I'm finding you boring & I'm pretty sure everybody can see the flaws in your cack so I really can't be arsed to acknowledge you anymore

See youre still flapping your gums though?
Which 'claims' would you like verified?

To be clear... Im not a religious person, I have no love for extremist jihadists...
Do I think the EDL are a bunch of blatently racist neo fascists? Yes, Im very comfortable with that assumption.
Do I think people who defend EDL are closet racists/fascists? Yes.

 

[Chris001]

I guess that is the 'Party Line' at least....

Where would you rather bring up your kids? Here or Syria?

 

[daveinprague]

From early on you have been shown to be just as narrow minded as any EDL member.
You claimed you could never blame a Muslim (including a Muslim extremist) for a bit of spray paint because you were not the type to point the finger yet you blamed it on EDL members from the start.

No, I did not, and I didnt say it was EDL from the start... I said, it could easily have been an idiot or a far right group, trying to incite. The word ISLAM being scrawled on a memorial does not necessarily identify the culprit. Maybe your world is a little simpler.

You banged on about all these ATTACKS on Muslims which were happening all over the country & it turns out its things written on Facebook which you are then pulled up on & you continue to try & make out that you see these ATTACKS as terrible & some kind of counter argument to anybody that questions Muslim fundamentalist or their wrong doings but when it comes criticising muslim jihadists for killing children then you play it down because it didnt happen here.

10 mosques were attacked, along with many other religious attacks.
In your world children are not killed in war? How many children were killed by British and American bombers in Iraq?

How can anybody take you seriously ?
You can't even admit you are wrong regarding the graffiti despite the fact you said that you would

There has been an arrest?? Tell me about it


I'd like to call you a prick but I find you such a joke I can't actually see the point in letting your laughably unbalanced views even bring me to the point of insulting you because you practically insult yourself when you post.

You couldnt insult me if you tried. I dont consider Lemons insulting.

 

[Chris001]

As for Syria, yes, im very interested to know, why my country is considering arming the rebels who Assad has been fighting, for the last couple of years, even when they KNOW many of the 'rebels' are Sunni Jihadists, with links to Al Qaeda, maybe you can help me with that?

Feel free to let me know how I am 'suppressing freedom of speech' exactly? Its very theatrical, but im interested.

Our country is considering arming the rebels to fight against Assad's dictatorship that is killing 10's of thousands of innocent people, most recently with chemical weapons. As you've said many of the rebels could be Sunni Jihadists - perhaps that's why they are only considering it, if it wasn't for this then perhaps they'd already be armed to the teeth with British weapons.

The UAF try and suppress freedom of speech by violently agitating events of organisations they don't agree with. Why can't people lay a wreath at a war memorial regardless of their politics without that load of tramps turning up and intimidating people.

 

[cunning fergus]

In such arguments both camps can quote stats and links and 'evidence' to support their claims, and all that happens is that the arguments go around in never ending circles with no positive end result.

What is clear, to me anyway, is that in these difficult times a lot of people want a target for their frustration and anger at the world. The danger here, as again history has shown time and again, is that the recipient culture chosen is then portrayed as an evil homogenous unit and victimised accordingly (think Germany in the 1930s). Thus normal, moderate, law-abiding Muslims end up being targeted alongside Islamic Fundamentalists, as they are seen as part of the problem and therefore not entitled to the same basic human rights as everyone else.

So the challenge remains to confront Islamic fundamentalism without playing into the hands of the Fascists, racists and bigots who would like nothing more than all Muslims to be gone, one way or another. And anyone who honestly believes that that is not the desired endgame of the EDL is deluded.

The prevailing state of the he UK has no tangible historical link to the situation in Germany in the 30s. The UK is not post a devastating world war, there is no political vacuum being filled with political extremists, inflation is not out of control, people are not poor because of reparation payments and foreign troops are not occupying East Anglia.

No, this is completely different, the UK has a significant population of new comers to this country now and an decreasing native born population. The 2011 census confirms only less than 45% of the capital city is white British. The speed of ethnic and cultural change is breathtaking and integration is failing as in many areas there is less and less native culture to integrate with. So a significant constituency of these newly formed communities operate in a vacuum and some have raised and/or continue to attract people that hate the country they were born to or live in.

As a consequence (and notwithstanding the obvious atrocities) there are plenty of native people pissed off with how the country has changed. The political elite for the last 15 years have constantly trumpeted on about the benefits of multiculturalism and free labour markets, without an iota of recognition on the negative impacts on natives whether militant Islam and ever decreasing wages for many skilled and unskilled workers. This chickens for this arrogance are now coming home to roost as the electorate disengages from mainstream politics..........until some new movement offers change.

Your challenge is correct of course, but here’s the rub, these days how can you challenge a culture with alien and entirely inconsistent traditions with the UK without provoking the shrill hysterical reactionaries that see ANY criticism of ANY culture as de facto racism. People have already lost their confidence................cultural change has therefore already taken root.

But just for arguments sake take the burka, on the one hand I don’t expect many people would advocate a law banning items of clothing (like in France), but many people find it unsettling at best and at worst its totemic of an image of cultural occupation. Cultural occupation may sound emotive but what precedent in this country’s history is there for this kind of dress...............it’s not Carnaby Street is it?

For many in the UK the burka epitomises the suppression of women in Islamic culture and the misogynist attitude of Muslim men, franked by recent media cases of their grooming of western girls for prostitution and killing their daughters, wives and girlfriends in particular. That may not be fair but the perception is undeniable.

Is this an issue you think we should confront or are you going to say you don’t care what people wear?

If you don’t want to confront the burka, what aspects of Muslim fundamentalism do you want to confront?

Personally I think it’s the kind of tradition the Muslim community already understand is inconsistent with British cultural values.............the Imams could advocate women not wearing it apart from certain religious days.

Why don’t they do that, it would be an easy way to show they understand British sensitivities and changing their culture to reconcile with that of their host. Job done.

 

[daveinprague]

Could be Sunni Jihadists So, you have no problem arming Islamic fundamentalists in somebody elses country?
From the start, Assad has said he is fighting 'terrorists' ...it seems our media and government chose to ignore that,
im not sure why, but now it seems clear that Sunni Jihadists from around the world are turning up there to fight.


Why does a far right group NEED to march to lay a wreath? Did any other group? Most people held prayers, or quiet personal reflection. They didnt try to EXPLOIT the boys death, to build their numbers up.
Why has his regiment sent letters out telling its soldiers, not to have anything to to with their extreme politics?
Why has the boys family asked for his death not to be used for confrontation?

None of us want Islamic jihadists in the UK, but we have them, thanks to history, and a whole lot of circumstances. If you think EDL speak for you and the country, good luck to you.
Personally, I find them abhorrent, and just the latest incarnation of British fascists..NF..BNP...who, lets face it, you dont see marching anywhere these days..wonder where their members went?
I know there is a problem with Islamic fundamentalism, but seriously, I dont think having violent, drunk racists, trying to march in areas with large muslim population, chanting Allah is a paedo... which is offensive, and pretty stupid, as Allah is the same bloke, as our supposed God, is particularly helpful.

 

[tezz79]

You couldnt insult me if you tried. I dont consider Lemons insulting.

You've gone from 500 attacks to 200 attacks now 10 attacks on buildings you plum & why do you bring up what american & british bombers have hit as an excuse to duck out of the condemnation of Muslims killing Muslims ?

Oh you blamed far right groups for the graffiti & it looks as if you were wrong Dave unless the far right are a little more diverse than you're making out so don't try to backpedal

 

[Bold Seagull]

The UAF try and suppress freedom of speech by violently agitating events of organisations they don't agree with. Why can't people lay a wreath at a war memorial regardless of their politics without that load of tramps turning up and intimidating people.

So why do the EDL need to lay a wreath as the EDL if it's regardless of politics?

A war memorial ironically for those that fought against facists.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You couldnt insult me if you tried. I dont consider Lemons insulting.

You've gone from 500 attacks to 200 attacks now 10 attacks on buildings you plum & why do you bring up what american & british bombers have hit as an excuse to duck out of the condemnation of Muslims killing Muslims ?

Oh you blamed far right groups for the graffiti & it looks as if you were wrong Dave unless the far right are a little more diverse than you're making out so don't try to backpedal

I think you both need to step back from the fruit based insults...

 

[tezz79]

I think you both need to step back from the fruit based insults...

Lol good point

 

[Dandyman]

The EDL fascist members used to belong to the BNP, and the NF before them...its the same people.

Exactly, if it was not Muslims it would Blacks, Jews, Irish or some other scapegoat.

 

[King of Birds]

The prevailing state of the he UK has no tangible historical link to the situation in Germany in the 30s. The UK is not post a devastating world war, there is no political vacuum being filled with political extremists, inflation is not out of control, people are not poor because of reparation payments and foreign troops are not occupying East Anglia.

No, this is completely different, the UK has a significant population of new comers to this country now and an decreasing native born population. The 2011 census confirms only less than 45% of the capital city is white British. The speed of ethnic and cultural change is breathtaking and integration is failing as in many areas there is less and less native culture to integrate with. So a significant constituency of these newly formed communities operate in a vacuum and some have raised and/or continue to attract people that hate the country they were born to or live in.

As a consequence (and notwithstanding the obvious atrocities) there are plenty of native people pissed off with how the country has changed. The political elite for the last 15 years have constantly trumpeted on about the benefits of multiculturalism and free labour markets, without an iota of recognition on the negative impacts on natives whether militant Islam and ever decreasing wages for many skilled and unskilled workers. This chickens for this arrogance are now coming home to roost as the electorate disengages from mainstream politics..........until some new movement offers change.

Your challenge is correct of course, but here’s the rub, these days how can you challenge a culture with alien and entirely inconsistent traditions with the UK without provoking the shrill hysterical reactionaries that see ANY criticism of ANY culture as de facto racism. People have already lost their confidence................cultural change has therefore already taken root.

But just for arguments sake take the burka, on the one hand I don’t expect many people would advocate a law banning items of clothing (like in France), but many people find it unsettling at best and at worst its totemic of an image of cultural occupation. Cultural occupation may sound emotive but what precedent in this country’s history is there for this kind of dress...............it’s not Carnaby Street is it?

For many in the UK the burka epitomises the suppression of women in Islamic culture and the misogynist attitude of Muslim men, franked by recent media cases of their grooming of western girls for prostitution and killing their daughters, wives and girlfriends in particular. That may not be fair but the perception is undeniable.

Is this an issue you think we should confront or are you going to say you don’t care what people wear?

If you don’t want to confront the burka, what aspects of Muslim fundamentalism do you want to confront?

Personally I think it’s the kind of tradition the Muslim community already understand is inconsistent with British cultural values.............the Imams could advocate women not wearing it apart from certain religious days.

Why don’t they do that, it would be an easy way to show they understand British sensitivities and changing their culture to reconcile with that of their host. Job done.

You raise many valid and interesting points Fergus, and many that I agree with. My point about 1930's Germany was less about the exact socio-political conditions of the age and more about a general demonising of a culture as a scapegoat for whatever the current ills are.

When deciding on which parts of Islamic Fundamentalism we should confront we get down to some of the real problems. Many of the misogynistic aspects of Islamic culture make me very uncomfortable, as they are the starting point for the justification for the brutal actions of the Taliban in the name of Sharia Law. Do I think we should ban the burka then? No, I don't, as I believe we can accommodate it within a moderate form of Islam where it is not the thin end of the wedge. That may be naïve I concede. I see it though as a bit of a side show, something easily attacked by those whose only mantra is freedom of expression, whatever the cost. Would I be happy to have more Muslims residing in the UK who are sensitive to traditional British sensitivities? Sure I would. But that's a two-way street that isn't helped by our foreign policies of recent years.

 

[daveinprague]

You've gone from 500 attacks to 200 attacks now 10 attacks on buildings you plum & why do you bring up what american & british bombers have hit as an excuse to duck out of the condemnation of Muslims killing Muslims ?

Oh you blamed far right groups for the graffiti & it looks as if you were wrong Dave unless the far right are a little more diverse than you're making out so don't try to backpedal

I will type it slowly for you, I said, it could just as well be an idiot, or a rightwing group...hope typing that slower helped you...


There are 200 documented attacks on muslims since this sad event. Im fairly certain I said 200...never 500....10 mosques have been attacked, there have been threats to many more.
There have been individual attacks, and attacks on property.

You want me to condemn muslims killing muslims? Of course I fecking do. I condemn people all around the world for killing other people..nobody is backpedalling anything.
I bring back the killing of civilians in Iraq, because it was done in our name.
For some reason, and its a common EDL resource, is to believe that opposing racist, fascists of the EDL equates to being some sort of ally of MAC or some other lunatic islamic fringe group. It doesnt. They are equally as bad as each other, however, MAC, MDL dont claim to represent me.

 

[daveinprague]

and no more fruit.

 

[Chris001]

Could be Sunni Jihadists So, you have no problem arming Islamic fundamentalists in somebody elses country?

I do have a problem with that, but I also have a problem with Assad murdering 10’s of thousands of innocent people.

From the start, Assad has said he is fighting 'terrorists' ...it seems our media and government chose to ignore that, im not sure why, but now it seems clear that Sunni Jihadists from around the world are turning up there to fight.

What are you saying? You’d sooner listen to a despot like Assad than our Government and media? Here in Britain you are provided with welfare, pension, health care, education and equal rights – move to Syria and see how far you get with your paranoid conspiracy theories.

Why does a far right group NEED to march to lay a wreath? Did any other group? Most people held prayers, or quiet personal reflection. They didnt try to EXPLOIT the boys death, to build their numbers up.

They, like many people are angry at what happened, but you see that as exploitation. We’ve just witnessed the savagery of extremist Muslim boys when their angry, extreme angry white boys want to lay a wreath and you’re up in arms! - they weren’t smashing up a mosque, they weren’t cutting of someone’s head in public, they wanted to lay a wreath FFS!

None of us want Islamic jihadists in the UK, but we have them, thanks to history, and a whole lot of circumstances. If you think EDL speak for you and the country, good luck to you.

They don’t speak for me – but I know they are less of a threat than the Jihadists that you casually accept as part and parcel of life in the UK. I respect that they aren’t scared to say we have a problem and are doing more than anyone else to debate it.

I know there is a problem with Islamic fundamentalism, but seriously, I dont think having violent, drunk racists, trying to march in areas with large muslim population, chanting Allah is a paedo... which is offensive, and pretty stupid, as Allah is the same bloke, as our supposed God, is particularly helpful.

They do attract a fair share of moronic idiots and that puts many people off. That said, much of what they stand for reflects the opinions of many British people, if it wasn’t for these idiots they’d have much more support and as a consequence much more wallop.