York Mosque shows the way for all of us

[BadFish]

Right so if these are the motives, what do we have to change and what do we have to compromise to make sure we are safe?

Maybe there are some of those things we can stop doing? Personally I think that minding our own business and not trying to install leaders to secure cheap oil would be a good start.

Like I said I am not an Islamic fundamentalist so I don't know the full list of grievances.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Watching Newsnight last night and these protests in Turkey. Is this not happening because of religion being connected in some way. It made me think of a more worrying trend, how long before these type of problems arrive on our own doorsteps in a much larger capacity. What happens when we have people in our own governments trying to impose laws because it does not align with their own faith.

 

[BadFish]

Watching Newsnight last night and these protests in Turkey. Is this not happening because of religion being connected in some way to the main political party. For me it made me think of a more worrying trend, how long before these type of problems arrive on our doorsteps in a much larger capacity. What happens when we have people in our own governments trying to impose laws because it does not align with their own faith.

A very good reason to keep Religion and the state well apart. Something which I hope the USA remember.

 

[daveinprague]

Now come on, iv'e already posted this is hogwash....remember.

The TRUTH about the 'wave of attacks' on Muslims after Woolwich killing: Most of the incidents recorded were offensive messages on Facebook and Twitter.
Apparently not one person has been treated for an attack.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ch-murder.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2V8UZ7tIy

http://www.newshour24.com/UK/74vvcyv...ok-Twitter.htm

http://news.sky.com/story/1095493/woolwich-rise-in-attacks-on-muslims
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-rise-attacks-muslims-113327480.html

 

[Soulman]

In your previous posts you stated over 200 attacks and 10 mosques.

From your own link.
""They range from general abuse to visible Muslims on the street, to graffiti at mosques, through to a firebomb at a mosque."
Three men arrested for making comments on social networking sites. A firebomb at ONE mosque.

So the attacks that have been stated in the links are actually verbal on the internet, and ONE mosque.
Not nice but understandable after the killing of an off duty soldier in his own country.
Meanwhile this man is allowed to say what he likes when and where he likes.
"Lee Rigby will burn in hellfire. But Michael is a nice man. Police have repeatedly failed to arrest Choudary over his inflammatory outbursts.

Vile Choudary told his followers Lee deserves no sympathy — but insisted those accused of his barbaric murder are martyrs.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...igby-will-burn-in-hellfire.html#ixzz2VEhMFHkM

 

[daveinprague]

Attacks on mosques have to be firebombs?


Anyway, basically, you want me to condemn both the UAF? for some reason... and Islam, before I dare to criticize British fascists? Seriously?

Ive always opposed British fascists, and I always will...just because this new wave of fascists, has adopted an 'anti Islam' policity, in order to gain support,
I cannot criticize them anymore, until I criticize everybody else, and must believe what they say, as 'they speak for Englishmen and women'??
I think ill treat them the same as ive always treated them thanks. With contempt.

 

[BadFish]

Attacks on mosques have to be firebombs?


Anyway, basically, you want me to condemn both the UAF? for some reason... and Islam, before I dare to criticize British fascists? Seriously?

Ive always opposed British fascists, and I always will...just because this new wave of fascists, has adopted an 'anti Islam' policity, in order to gain support,
I cannot criticize them anymore, until I criticize everybody else, and must believe what they say, as 'they speak for Englishmen and women'??

Sounds like there are now three groups on this thread to criticize.

I expect the Jihadists are pretty happy with polarizing people and getting them at each others throats.

There seems to be a need to pick a side here but surely the answer lies in more moderate people finding a solution.

 

[tezz79]

Attacks on mosques have to be firebombs?


Anyway, basically, you want me to condemn both the UAF? for some reason... and Islam, before I dare to criticize British fascists? Seriously?

Ive always opposed British fascists, and I always will...just because this new wave of fascists, has adopted an 'anti Islam' policity, in order to gain support,
I cannot criticize them anymore, until I criticize everybody else, and must believe what they say, as 'they speak for Englishmen and women'??

Using your logic I could ignore a lot of things in those links & choose to believe it could be down to Muslim extremists trying to inflame the situation but then that would be a cop out wouldn't it

 

[tezz79]

In your previous posts you stated over 200 attacks and 10 mosques.

From your own link.
""They range from general abuse to visible Muslims on the street, to graffiti at mosques, through to a firebomb at a mosque."
Three men arrested for making comments on social networking sites. A firebomb at ONE mosque.

So the attacks that have been stated in the links are actually verbal on the internet, and ONE mosque.
Not nice but understandable after the killing of an off duty soldier in his own country.
Meanwhile this man is allowed to say what he likes when and where he likes.
"Lee Rigby will burn in hellfire. But Michael is a nice man. Police have repeatedly failed to arrest Choudary over his inflammatory outbursts.

Vile Choudary told his followers Lee deserves no sympathy — but insisted those accused of his barbaric murder are martyrs.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...igby-will-burn-in-hellfire.html#ixzz2VEhMFHkM

He chops & changes stats to fit in with the links he finds

 

[Soulman]

1:07PM BST 03 Jun 2013

Tom Harris, a member of Ed Miliband’s front bench team, said that British politicians and commentators should be more willing to criticize “Islamism”.

Writing for telegraph.co.uk/politics, Mr Harris said that Britain must be honest about the violent and intolerant beliefs held by some people who live in the country.
Britain, including British Muslims, must now “examine the dark underbelly of what goes on in some of our mosques” and do more to confront extremists, he said.
In the wake of the Woolwich terrorist attack, Mr Harris said, some commentators and politicians have spent too much time talking about the English Defence League and other far-Right groups who reacted to the killing.
Instead, he said, commentators and politicians should focus on “Islamism”.
03 Jun 2013

Mr Harris said: “The irony is that Islamism is itself fascistic. It is violently intolerant of women’s and gay rights, and supportive of the Iranian regime’s policy of public hanging for homosexuals. It allows no room for individual freedom of expression and deals with its opponents in the most ruthless way. Saddam’s regime was explicitly and intentionally modelled on that of Nazi Germany’s.
Some Muslims in Britain hold essentially intolerant and violent beliefs, he said.
“There are people living in this country who believe as an article of faith that it is acceptable, even necessary, to kill citizens of any country which has dared to attack a Muslim country. They believe that the kaffir, as they insultingly refer to non-believers, are of less value to their God than Muslims. They despise a culture which extends equal rights to women and gays, and scorn those women who dare to dress “immodestly” as whores.”

 

[daveinprague]

Your probably right. Muslims up and down the country, are attacking themselves, and mosques to inflame the situation, as there is a long history of doing that sort of thing, unlike British fascists.. who are prepared to run with a horrendous rumour despite the local authority, local schools, and local police denying it...which is why im kind of wary of some of the shit that happens...You guys, can let British fascists speak for you then.

What did i chop and change Tezz....and who was arrested for the graffiti that you want me to 'apologise' for? You forgot to answer.

 

[Soulman]

He chops & changes stats to fit in with the links he finds

Correct. He is still hanging on to the fact that he thinks the memorial was sprayed with the word ISLAM by a right wing nutter.

 

[Soulman]

You guys, can let British fascists speak for you then.

I think you will find that many ordinary people in England from all faiths and colours have had enough of these radical barmpots, have had enough of the protection of them whilst ordinary people are being silenced. I think that people are waking up to who the real fascists are.

 

[Soulman]

Funny how Labour did nothing when in power, yet even they are starting to wake up.

"The consequences of those beliefs are social tension and segregation, Mr Harris said.

“Such attitudes result in women being harrassed by groups of militant youths near British mosques, warning them not to walk in “Muslim areas” while dressed “inappropriately”.

“It can and has also resulted in rather more violent expressions of their beliefs, such as detonating suicide bombs on the London Underground and murdering off-duty soldiers. And that’s before we consider the numerous failed attempts to take the lives of non-believers in the name of jihad.”

British Muslims must do more to confront such intolerant beliefs, Mr Harris said.

“Uncomfortable though it is for some, we need to examine the dark underbelly of what goes on in some of our mosques. True, the vast majority of British Muslims would never associate themselves with Islamism.

“Yet preachers of hate as well as their followers and fellow travellers, worship in the same buildings, speak to, work with, and are related to that sensible majority. And those law-abiding citizens have a duty to challenge them, expel them and, if necessary, report them to the authorities.”

 

[Bold Seagull]

1:07PM BST 03 Jun 2013

Tom Harris, a member of Ed Miliband’s front bench team, said that British politicians and commentators should be more willing to criticize “Islamism”.

Writing for telegraph.co.uk/politics, Mr Harris said that Britain must be honest about the violent and intolerant beliefs held by some people who live in the country.
Britain, including British Muslims, must now “examine the dark underbelly of what goes on in some of our mosques” and do more to confront extremists, he said.
In the wake of the Woolwich terrorist attack, Mr Harris said, some commentators and politicians have spent too much time talking about the English Defence League and other far-Right groups who reacted to the killing.
Instead, he said, commentators and politicians should focus on “Islamism”.
03 Jun 2013

Mr Harris said: “The irony is that Islamism is itself fascistic. It is violently intolerant of women’s and gay rights, and supportive of the Iranian regime’s policy of public hanging for homosexuals. It allows no room for individual freedom of expression and deals with its opponents in the most ruthless way. Saddam’s regime was explicitly and intentionally modelled on that of Nazi Germany’s.
Some Muslims in Britain hold essentially intolerant and violent beliefs, he said.
“There are people living in this country who believe as an article of faith that it is acceptable, even necessary, to kill citizens of any country which has dared to attack a Muslim country. They believe that the kaffir, as they insultingly refer to non-believers, are of less value to their God than Muslims. They despise a culture which extends equal rights to women and gays, and scorn those women who dare to dress “immodestly” as whores.”

So in actual fact, the EDL themselves have prevented sensible discussion in debating Islamism by their own actions. It should be perfectly clear that you cannot fight fascism with fascism. The EDL don't want a debate, they want expulsion, this is undoubtedly their mandate and why it gets so many people's backs up.

Being anti-EDL does not mean you are against a debate on Islam and it's integration into society, it also doesn't mean you sign up to other organisations such as the UAF.

Anyone who thinks that the EDL represent those that wish to debate the issue are seriously deluded.

 

[daveinprague]

Correct. He is still hanging on to the fact that he thinks the memorial was sprayed with the word ISLAM by a right wing nutter.

and I will say it again.. I said... It could just have easily been done by an idiot or a far right group......

Unless of course you have some sort of proof that he was a muslim? Has there been an arrest?

 

[BadFish]

I think you will find that many ordinary people in England from all faiths and colours have had enough of these radical barmpots, have had enough of the protection of them whilst ordinary people are being silenced. I think that people are waking up to who the real fascists are.

This maybe so but that doesn't make the EDL any less repulsive than they always have been. I hope that the bulk of the British public would be a little more choosy about who they allow to represent them, I know the ones I know will not be running into the arms of far right organisations, even the ones on the right wing!

i continue to be surprised at your readiness to defend and support the EDL, I thought you were better than that. (yes yes I know stop pigeonholing you and trying to put you in a box). I have had some cracking debates with you on here and have disagreed with much you have said but always assumed you were decent and intelligent. It concerns me greatly that you have chosen the EDL as the source of the answer to the question of extremist Islam........... I also think you are quite, quite wrong.

Fighting hate with hate can surely only end with one thing.

 

[Soulman]

So in actual fact, the EDL themselves have prevented sensible discussion in debating Islamism by their own actions. It should be perfectly clear that you cannot fight fascism with fascism. The EDL don't want a debate, they want expulsion, this is undoubtedly their mandate and why it gets so many people's backs up.

Being anti-EDL does not mean you are against a debate on Islam and it's integration into society, it also doesn't mean you sign up to other organisations such as the UAF.

Anyone who thinks that the EDL represent those that wish to debate the issue are seriously deluded.

Yes, i agree but, why was the EDL formed. If the government had done something about the radical Muslim problem, not admitted that this problem had existed for years but was hidden so as not to offend those that are easily offended, then the EDL would not be in the way of those that wish to debate.
Meanwhile we have oposers to the EDL that are government backed and funded, the UAF......that does not look like the government are tackling the problem to me.

Do you think then that if the EDL were not around, then debate would happen, even though it has been admitted that it has been brushed under the carpet at least 10 years BEFORE the EDL were formed. Seems to me the scapegoat is in position.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think you will find that many ordinary people in England from all faiths and colours have had enough of these radical barmpots, have had enough of the protection of them whilst ordinary people are being silenced. I think that people are waking up to who the real fascists are.

Their have probably been more radicals from Catholicism to the IRA exacting terrorism on British shores than there ever has from Islam. Not to mention the Catholic churches covering up of decades or systematic child abuse. Religions have their fundamentalists, that does not necessarily mean an entire religion is fundamental or holding to extreme values.

If you want to witness fundamental Christianity, you only have to go on a tour of the US, which has had it's fair number of terrorists acts under that name.

I think you are wrong in your assertion, and that actually many people realise Islam has a problematic extremist element that certainly needs addressing, modernising, integrating, however they also realise that the vast majority of Muslims are law abiding, decent human beings who make a positive contribution to society.

The debate on Islamism and addressing it is being stifled in this country by those that mean to persecute. Anyone who thinks the EDL have any kind of support of anyone but the small minded is wrong.

 

[BadFish]

Yes, i agree but, why was the EDL formed. If the government had done something about the radical Muslim problem, not admitted that this problem had existed for years but was hidden so as not to offend those that are easily offended, then the EDL would not be in the way of those that wish to debate.
Meanwhile we have oposers to the EDL that are government backed and funded, the UAF......that does not look like the government are tackling the problem to me.

Do you think then that if the EDL were not around, then debate would happen, even though it has been admitted that it has been brushed under the carpet at least 10 years BEFORE the EDL were formed. Seems to me the scapegoat is in position.

I don't see how the EDL are relevant in the discussion about Islam. I am not sure when they where formed but I agree with dave on this one. If the look like DNP and NF and sound like BNP and NF then they probably are.

Why are you putting these people out there as a solution to the problem of Extremist Islam? What makes you think they can solve the problem?