War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[Westdene Seagull]

Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders, allows a Palestinian state, does not beseige that state but allows its ecomonic and political development, support for terrorism fades away.

Send this man to Eygpt ..... and quick

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Dandyman - is your first name Barack ?

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders, allows a Palestinian state, does not beseige that state but allows its ecomonic and political development, support for terrorism fades away.

I'd like to agree with you Dandyman but does that address a few more of those 'lose face' issues?

The future of Jerusalem
The already existant settlements and the future of the settlers who live there
Palestinians living and working in Israel
Renumeration to those Palestinainas who lost their homes since 1948

 

[simmo]

Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders, allows a Palestinian state, does not beseige that state but allows its ecomonic and political development, support for terrorism fades away.

Ok fine in theory but..........as the situation stands now.


If Hamas will not recognise Israel how can Hamas negotiate this solution with them.

If Israel does this unilaterally, won't Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran see this as a victory and as a sign of total weekness within Israel (i.e the people and their leaders do not have the stomach for a fight) and will mean they commit more terrorism create conflict etc. as this encourages them to push on for their final victory which is the complete and utter anhiliation of Israel.

If there were more moderate leaders within Palestine itself at the moment, your solution would be something that should be considered and I commend you for it.

 

[simmo]

Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders, allows a Palestinian state, does not beseige that state but allows its ecomonic and political development, support for terrorism fades away.

Most neutral people outside the region know that the only answer is a 2 state solution.

I am certain there has been endless debate within Israel about this and apart from the religious loons etc stating only a 1 state solution, I am certain that the more enlightened amongst them realise that the only way for long term lasting peace within the whole of the Middle East the only answer is a 2 state solution. I personally think that nearly all their Prime Ministers have truly realised that to get lasting peace this has to be the answer (which is why Rabin tried to do a deal with Arafat)

but as it stands.................Hamas whom are at present the leaders of the Palestinian people, sponsered by Iran does not recognise this solution at all, it says it in the manifesto (or equivalent of!) their answer is a 1 state solution, Palestine. If Hamas want to make an issue (i.e go to war) over this by firing rockets into Jewish settlements and create conflict with Israel over it, they and the peoples that they represent (because innocents die in all wars on all sides) are going to get pummelled because Israel is so much milatarily stronger than them, which is what is happening.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Simmo, that is an accurate assessment.

Maybe we should all come back in a couple of years and see how they've got on?

 

[Half Time Pies]

This is a flawed argument, Egypt and Jordon have done deals with Israel to protect their security as nations and on the back of the carrot of huge US cash injections ($2 billion a year since 1979 in the case of Egypt). The palestinians have no state and essentially nothing to lose.

I don't believe that a two state solution has ever been on the Israeli agenda, the oslo peace agreement placed half the west bank under Israeli control and the rest subject to an agreement that was so ambiguous that it basically left Israel with the ability to as they pleased.

How can it be flawed argument it is a peace agreement and the peace is kept? Israel keep the peace with Egypt and Jordan and for whatever reason you are STILL not happy and make up all the excuses under the sun as to why this happens....I should have known that somehow the USA would be involved in your twisted logical thinking.

This is a fact Israel and Egypt have had a peace deal for 30 years, Israel and Jordan have had a peace deal for 15 years. There are no issues on these two borders. Egypt and Jordan have come to the realisation that there is a Jewish state and although they do not like it they have to lump it.

Hamas wishes the destruction of the Jewish state. There is conflict now between Hamas and Israel. Hezbollah wishes the destruction of the Jewish state, there is/was conflict in Lebanon 2 years ago or so between Israel and Hezbollah. Iran wishes the destruction of the Jewish state.........no doubt in your mind when or if any incidents arise between these two countries it will all be because of Israel.

Palestine is different because basically it is the same land but Israel have tried but sadly the peace accord with Arafat unravelled, Hamas (and Hezbollah and Iran) need to think about this fact in that Israel is never, never, never going to negotiate itself away into history and much as you or the Arab nations around it hate it, Israel is so much militaritly stronger than anyone else in the region they are not going to be defeated in a war. If you have a conflict with them you are going to lose and your people are going to suffer badly, which is what is happening right now.[/QUOTE]

You have hit the nail on the head 'Israel is so much more military stronger than anyone else in the region' this is why Egypt and Jordon have had to negotiate as if they 'didnt like it they would have to lump it' and why do they have a strong military, well perhaps its because they are supported by the US. Not twisted logic the US has EVERYTHING to do with this conflict.

Egypt and Jordon have a lot to loose and a fair amount to gain but what exactly do the palestinians have to gain by accepting peace agreements that continue their annexation and force them to live under an administration that bulldozes there homes, gives them little land for agriculture, no water to grow crops and little prospects for the future?

 

[simmo]

How can it be flawed argument it is a peace agreement and the peace is kept? Israel keep the peace with Egypt and Jordan and for whatever reason you are STILL not happy and make up all the excuses under the sun as to why this happens....I should have known that somehow the USA would be involved in your twisted logical thinking.

This is a fact Israel and Egypt have had a peace deal for 30 years, Israel and Jordan have had a peace deal for 15 years. There are no issues on these two borders. Egypt and Jordan have come to the realisation that there is a Jewish state and although they do not like it they have to lump it.

Hamas wishes the destruction of the Jewish state. There is conflict now between Hamas and Israel. Hezbollah wishes the destruction of the Jewish state, there is/was conflict in Lebanon 2 years ago or so between Israel and Hezbollah. Iran wishes the destruction of the Jewish state.........no doubt in your mind when or if any incidents arise between these two countries it will all be because of Israel.

Palestine is different because basically it is the same land but Israel have tried but sadly the peace accord with Arafat unravelled, Hamas (and Hezbollah and Iran) need to think about this fact in that Israel is never, never, never going to negotiate itself away into history and much as you or the Arab nations around it hate it, Israel is so much militaritly stronger than anyone else in the region they are not going to be defeated in a war. If you have a conflict with them you are going to lose and your people are going to suffer badly, which is what is happening right now.

You have hit the nail on the head 'Israel is so much more military stronger than anyone else in the region' this is why Egypt and Jordon have had to negotiate as if they 'didnt like it they would have to lump it' and why do they have a strong military, well perhaps its because they are supported by the US. Not twisted logic the US has EVERYTHING to do with this conflict.

Egypt and Jordon have a lot to loose and a fair amount to gain but what exactly do the palestinians have to gain by accepting peace agreements that continue their annexation and force them to live under an administration that bulldozes there homes, gives them little land for agriculture, no water to grow crops and little prospects for the future?[/QUOTE]


It is twisted logic, you want to blame the US for everything because no doubt you always do for whatever problems there are in the world.

This problem is due to either the thoughts and actions of Israeli politicians or Arab leaders it cannot be anything else,they are ones that are not keeping the peace not the US, it is not the US that is bombing Palestinian dwellings or launching rockets into Jewish settlements.

Here is a reality check for you and the Arab leaders.

Israel will comprehensively defeat you in any military conflict.
Israel is not going to negotiate itself out of existance.

Here is a reality check for you and the Palestinian leaders.

You are totally and utterly behind the eight ball. Israel has all the cards in the deck. It has the land, it has the guns, it has the planes, it has the backing of the US, it has the money, you have none of these.

You can either a) every now and again punch it on the nose or twists it's ear (i.e launch rocket attacks in Jewish settlements) but it will shake it's head and come back and batter you to smitherens

or b) you can not launch rockets or suicide bombers etc at Israel so that at least you and your people live in peace.

Then one day if you do b) for a period of time Israel may for a long term deal for eternal peace may cede some land to you so that you can live side by side in peace, because you can see they did this with Egypt and Rabin tried to do this with Arafat.

You must also realise that you, Palestine, are going to get crumbs from the table. I am sorry you and the Palestinians won't like this but this is reality. But surely crumbs with peace is better than anhiliation and war which is what they have now.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You have hit the nail on the head 'Israel is so much more military stronger than anyone else in the region' this is why Egypt and Jordon have had to negotiate as if they 'didnt like it they would have to lump it' and why do they have a strong military, well perhaps its because they are supported by the US. Not twisted logic the US has EVERYTHING to do with this conflict.

<snip>

Then one day if you do b) for a period of time Israel may for a long term deal for eternal peace may cede some land to you so that you can live side by side in peace, because you can see they did this with Egypt and Rabin tried to do this with Arafat.

You must also realise that you, Palestine, are going to get crumbs from the table. I am sorry you and the Palestinians won't like this but this is reality. But surely crumbs with peace is better than anhiliation and war which is what they have now.

You're clearly Steve Foster under a new account. I guess you felt you had to create another persona after the threats of violence you posted !!!

What about an alternative to your solution of Palestinians just "giving in" to Israel. How about Hamas agrees to stop attacking Israel in return for getting the land back that Israel occupies against international law ? I'm not talking about the main part of Israel itself ( I agree it exists as a independent country ) - just the illeaglly occupied lands ? That way both sides concede and the Palenstinians don't have to give in to a bully.

 

[Les Biehn]

Perhaps a mud wrestling contest between these two could decide the outcome? Palestine one does look a bit weird in that pic though.
Palestine Model

Israel Model

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

You must also realise that you, Palestine, are going to get crumbs from the table. I am sorry you and the Palestinians won't like this but this is reality. But surely crumbs with peace is better than anhiliation and war which is what they have now.

One of the most ever depressing posts on NSC. Simmo - go and have a lie down in a darkened room with a damp flannel over your face.

 

[simmo]

You're clearly Steve Foster under a new account. I guess you felt you had to create another persona after the threats of violence you posted !!!

What about an alternative to your solution of Palestinians just "giving in" to Israel. How about Hamas agrees to stop attacking Israel in return for getting the land back that Israel occupies against international law ? I'm not talking about the main part of Israel itself ( I agree it exists as a independent country ) - just the illeaglly occupied lands ? That way both sides concede and the Palenstinians don't have to give in to a bully.

I am going to give you are reality check too. You and the Palestinians need to deal with the present situation right now which is this

As far as the Israleis are concerned you can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about international law UN blah, blah, blah, you might as well pi55 into the wind. Who has the power within that region to enforce this. I am sorry you do not like this but this is the truth, we can sit here by our cosy firesides in Sussex and talk all day long about UN resolutions, mandates about Palestine 1917 etc. but in Israel do they honestly think that they care about this. They also know that no-one in that region has the power to force them to do this. I don't think I am not trying to be pro Israeli I am just trying to tell you what the reality of the situation is. I mean if you think that it is that easy you go to that area and you enforce it!

That is why the Palestinians are always going to get crumbs off the table.

Also on another point if the Israelis did do this unilaterally will not Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran see this as weakness and launch more attacks?

 

[algie]

I am going to give you are reality check too. You and the Palestinians need to deal with the present situation right now which is this

As far as the Israleis are concerned you can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about international law UN blah, blah, blah, you might as well pi55 into the wind. Who has the power within that region to enforce this. I am sorry you do not like this but this is the truth, we can sit here by our cosy firesides in Sussex and talk all day long about UN resolutions, mandates about Palestine 1917 etc. but in Israel do they honestly think that they care about this. They also know that no-one in that region has the power to force them to do this. I don't think I am not trying to be pro Israeli I am just trying to tell you what the reality of the situation is. I mean if you think that it is that easy you go to that area and you enforce it!

That is why the Palestinians are always going to get crumbs off the table.

Also on another point if the Israelis did do this unilaterally will not Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran see this as weakness and launch more attacks?

Good post.Carefull though,he will call you a f***ing jew idiot in a minute.

 

[Les Biehn]

I gotta say if I was Palestinian I'm not so sure I would want a two state solution but as Simmo says the reality is that it may be the only way to reduce the mess because it won't solve it.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Good post.Carefull though,he will call you a f***ing jew idiot in a minute.

Might I really

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

It is twisted logic, you want to blame the US for everything because no doubt you always do for whatever problems there are in the world.

This problem is due to either the thoughts and actions of Israeli politicians or Arab leaders it cannot be anything else,they are ones that are not keeping the peace not the US, it is not the US that is bombing Palestinian dwellings or launching rockets into Jewish settlements.

Here is a reality check for you and the Arab leaders.

Israel will comprehensively defeat you in any military conflict.
Israel is not going to negotiate itself out of existance.

Here is a reality check for you and the Palestinian leaders.

You are totally and utterly behind the eight ball. Israel has all the cards in the deck. It has the land, it has the guns, it has the planes, it has the backing of the US, it has the money, you have none of these.

You can either a) every now and again punch it on the nose or twists it's ear (i.e launch rocket attacks in Jewish settlements) but it will shake it's head and come back and batter you to smitherens

or b) you can not launch rockets or suicide bombers etc at Israel so that at least you and your people live in peace.

Then one day if you do b) for a period of time Israel may for a long term deal for eternal peace may cede some land to you so that you can live side by side in peace, because you can see they did this with Egypt and Rabin tried to do this with Arafat.

You must also realise that you, Palestine, are going to get crumbs from the table. I am sorry you and the Palestinians won't like this but this is reality. But surely crumbs with peace is better than anhiliation and war which is what they have now.

In one sentence you are saying "It is twisted logic, you want to blame the US for everything because no doubt you always do for whatever problems there are in the world."

Then in one further on you say this: "It has the land, it has the guns, it has the planes, it has the backing of the US, it has the money, you have none of these."

The US has always backed Israel unconditionally since the state was created with weapons and money, if this was not the case Israel now might not exist or may not be so powerful in respect to it's neighbours.
If it weren't so powerful it may not have done the illegal land grabs and also may have to look upon it's neighbours as allies rather than the US.
So you can blame the US for some of the problems in the Middle East today.

 

[NMH]

Think though - if Israel didn't exist, we'd have to put up with a load of arrogant cock-knockers living among us and in countries across the World.

Who wants THAT??

 

[brighton bluenose]

I am going to give you are reality check too. You and the Palestinians need to deal with the present situation right now which is this

As far as the Israleis are concerned you can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about international law UN blah, blah, blah, you might as well pi55 into the wind. Who has the power within that region to enforce this. I am sorry you do not like this but this is the truth, we can sit here by our cosy firesides in Sussex and talk all day long about UN resolutions, mandates about Palestine 1917 etc. but in Israel do they honestly think that they care about this. They also know that no-one in that region has the power to force them to do this. I don't think I am not trying to be pro Israeli I am just trying to tell you what the reality of the situation is. I mean if you think that it is that easy you go to that area and you enforce it!

That is why the Palestinians are always going to get crumbs off the table.

Also on another point if the Israelis did do this unilaterally will not Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran see this as weakness and launch more attacks?

And that, my friend, is why the Palestinians have HAD to resort to 'terrorism', why Hamas send suicide bombers and rockets into Israel and why ISRAEL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE AT PEACE UNTIL JUSTICE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!!

I may not agree with 'terrorism' but I sure can understand WHY they resort to it!!

 

[Dandyman]

I'd like to agree with you Dandyman but does that address a few more of those 'lose face' issues?

The future of Jerusalem
The already existant settlements and the future of the settlers who live there
Palestinians living and working in Israel
Renumeration to those Palestinainas who lost their homes since 1948

How about...

The Arab half (West?) becomes the capital of Palestine, Tel Aviv remains the capital of Israel but full access to all religious sites is guaranteed to all.

Settlers should return the land they have seized, they can then chose to return to Israel or become residents of Palestine.

Palestinians give up their right of return in exchange for a UN funded development programme (houses, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, industry, etc).

 

[Dandyman]

Good post.Carefull though,he will call you a f***ing jew idiot in a minute.

Only one bigot on this thread so far, mazeltov.