War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[The Large One]

nor did i say it was, just wondered why some live such primitive lives when TLO was singing the praises of their scientists etc.

Their lives are not especially primitive - they have had access to architecture, culture, civilised society, irrigation, drainage, sanitary systems for far longer than we have, it's just more many live in poverty.

One of the dictates of Islamic scholars and scientists, especially Arabs and Persians was to challenge everything, leading to a golden era (from 9th to 15th century) in scientific achievement. From challenging doctrine, received wisdom and everything else considered sacrosanct, they could advance the causes of science, the arts, engineering and so on.

Raids by the Crusades and Mongols from 11th-12th Centuries, the Arab influence across Europe and what we now call the Middle East waned from 13th Century onwards, up to and including the fall of the last City State (Granada) in Islamic Spain in 1492.

Effectively, one could argue that much of their work is still stuck in the 15th Century.

 

[simmo]

Punters on here will be able to identify Jewish leader, who may have colloborated with the Germans for whatever reasons.
Nevertheless there are other fascists/ dictators Stalin, Mao etc who shook with the right hand and mass murdered with the left.

Some of the terrorist atrocities undertaken in the 40's and 50's by jewish zealots would never had been condoned if not for the work of the Nazi's, the massacre of innocents in the refugee camps in the early 80's whilst the Israeli army turned away was right out of Russian , German textbook work.

There are plenty of Jews in that country who want to live with other creeds, religions but there are also some very nasty people there, normally of the othodox right, who view Arabs on par with the way the Nazi's assessed Jews.

The Nazi's operated a policy of genocide against the Jews. This is the extermination of a race. The Nazis aim pure and simple was to exterminate all Jews. I agree in that others such as Stalin have operated such a policy against minorites within his own domain too.

It is however, not Israels intention to exterminate all Arabs/Muslims. They have concluded peace deals with Egypt and also Jordan, both of which more or less hold. They have tried to conclude a peace deal with the Palestinians as I mentioned earlier with the Clinton backed 1995 agreement between Rabin, Peres and Arafat which ultimately failed.

During every conflict in the history of the world on all sides there are attrocities of war involving civilians to cherry pick and point out Israeli ones is just a biased reading of the situation. The PLO targetted and killed Israeli olympic athletes in 1972 at Munich to counter balance that argument.

The British killed 40-50,000 civilians bombing Dresden in 1945, the Americans killed 350+ civilians at My Lai in the Vietnam War, the Russians killed 3000 Polish elite in 1940. These are just a few examples of attrocities of war which have probably happened in every war and all sides commit them, however they are "one-off" examples of attrocities they are not genocide which is what the Nazis operated which was the planned extermination of a race by using devices such as gas chambers.

You can't just say Israel and only Israel kills civilians, all sides will do and have done in the history of war. Sadly in war/conflicts people die on all sides civilians and soldiers, it is the nature of conflict itself, however it is incomparable to what the Nazis tried to do.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Which is the pickle that Israel has allowed itself to get into. Because I am sure many people look at what is happening and the word ghetto springs to mind.

Negotiation and simply getting on with neighbours is (and has ever been) the only way forward. I disagree about the polarisation of views. Do most people support one side or the other ? I am sure many people just look on it and just think what a mess. How did Israel with so much worldwide goodwill behind it let it get to be like this ?

 

[Dandyman]

As this is a Brighton football club web site I presume the majority of users are white (therefore non Jewish or non Arab) English people...

F*ck me, until today I thought I was white, English and half-Jewish. Silly me...

 

[London Calling]

The Nazi's operated a policy of genocide against the Jews. This is the extermination of a race. The Nazis aim pure and simple was to exterminate all Jews. I agree in that others such as Stalin have operated such a policy against minorites within his own domain too.

It is however, not Israels intention to exterminate all Arabs/Muslims. They have concluded peace deals with Egypt and also Jordan, both of which more or less hold. They have tried to conclude a peace deal with the Palestinians as I mentioned earlier with the Clinton backed 1995 agreement between Rabin, Peres and Arafat which ultimately failed.

During every conflict in the history of the world on all sides there are attrocities of war involving civilians to cherry pick and point out Israeli ones is just a biased reading of the situation. The PLO targetted and killed Israeli olympic athletes in 1972 at Munich to counter balance that argument.

The British killed 40-50,000 civilians bombing Dresden in 1945, the Americans killed 350+ civilians at My Lai in the Vietnam War, the Russians killed 3000 Polish elite in 1940. These are just a few examples of attrocities of war which have probably happened in every war and all sides commit them, however they are "one-off" examples of attrocities they are not genocide which is what the Nazis operated which was the planned extermination of a race by using devices such as gas chambers.

You can't just say Israel and only Israel kills civilians, all sides will do and have done in the history of war. Sadly in war/conflicts people die on all sides civilians and soldiers, it is the nature of conflict itself, however it is incomparable to what the Nazis tried to do.

Didn't we have a good debate about those Poles being massacred a few weeks ago?

LC

 

[London Calling]

But history tells us, what they are doing at the mo, will not bring peace to that land. They said Bloody Sunday was the best recruiting tool for the IRA.
Didn't we have a good debate about those Poles being massacred a few weeks ago?

But history tells us, what they are doing at the mo, will not bring peace to that land. They said Bloody Sunday was the best recruiting tool for the IRA
LC[/QUOTE]

 

[simmo]

F*ck me, until today I thought I was white, English and half-Jewish. Silly me...

It's funny but I thought of using the phrase Christian instead of white but I thought I might offend the atheists by using that.

What I was trying to say individuals whom should be neutral i.e have no vested interest (and i think you knew that in any case).

 

[Dandyman]

It's funny but I thought of using the phrase Christian instead of white but I thought I might offend the atheists by using that.

What I was trying to say individuals whom should be neutral i.e have no vested interest (and i think you knew that in any case).

Fair nuff. Just that we are one "community club" that does have a historical Jewish support from places like Hove and among the University population. Personally I'm an atheist and only (part) Jewish in the sense of cultural heritage.

 

[simmo]

But history tells us, what they are doing at the mo, will not bring peace to that land.
LC

[/QUOTE]


I totally agree with that. But then again with Hamas launching missile attacks on Jewish lands is not going to bring peace to that area either!

Egypt and Jordan have both signed peace deals with Israel have stuck, however much it sticks in their throat they have realised that as long as Israel is so strong they will not be able to defeat it so they must try and live in some sort of peaceful co-existance with Israel.

Hamas need to realise this too, any conflict between them and Israel is going to lead to their people losing far more lives than Israels. They have a dream of wiping Israel off the map and this is just a dream, militarily it just is not going to happen and they need to realise this as Egypt has. Arafat who was from Fatah realised this after 30 years or so of trying to fight Israel he tried to get a deal but the peace deal unravelled.

 

[simmo]

Fair nuff. Just that we are one "community club" that does have a historical Jewish support from places like Hove and among the University population. Personally I'm an atheist and only (part) Jewish in the sense of cultural heritage.

So you are half Jewish-half atheist then

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Hamas need to realise this too, any conflict between them and Israel is going to lead to their people losing far more lives than Israels. They have a dream of wiping Israel off the map and this is just a dream, militarily it just is not going to happen and they need to realise this as Egypt has.

Why let the conditions arise where a party like Hamas take power ? Taking the lives of civilians is not a wise way of demonstrating strength.

 

[Dandyman]

So you are half Jewish-half atheist then

but 100% Albion.

 

[simmo]

Why let the conditions arise where a party like Hamas take power ? Taking the lives of civilians is not a wise way of demonstrating strength.

It is not Israels sole blame that Hamas took power, the Palestinians had a leader that galvanised and united the whole of the Paestinian peoples in Arafat, whom was Fatah, upon his death the unity of the peoples of Palestine unravelled into political/idealogical persuasions of Fatah and Hamas, the primary reason why Hamas came into power had a lot to do with the fact that Fatah were incredibly corrupt. Monies that should have been going for infrastructure projects in Gaza/West bank were going into Fatah's party faithful pockets, the people could see this and voted out Fatah and got the only alternative Hamas.

As I have said before the taking of civilian lives happens in all conflicts by all sides, you can't just cherry pick Israel and say only they do it!

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

As I have said before the taking of civilian lives happens in all conflicts by all sides, you can't just cherry pick Israel and say only they do it!

As far as I am aware no-one is saying that. But the fact that it happens elsewhere does not make it right. A difference here is that Israel have helped create the conditions where the civilian population apparently have no-where to go. It is a mess - and Israel appear to have let the conditions arise where Hamas have taken power. Not very bright.

You do not have to look too far to see examples where British have knowingly killed civilians - but again it does not make it right.

 

[simmo]

As far as I am aware no-one is saying that. But the fact that it happens elsewhere does not make it right. A difference here is that Israel have helped create the conditions where the civilian population apparently have no-where to go. It is a mess - and Israel appear to have let the conditions arise where Hamas have taken power. Not very bright.

You do not have to look too far to see examples where British have knowingly killed civilians - but again it does not make it right.

They may not say it but they only think of Israeli actions/agressions, the Palestinians/PLO are not whiter than white. The PLO targetted passenger airlines in the late 70's and 80's are you saying civilians weren't on board those planes?

Just read through some of the posts on the threads some have even compared the Israelis' to the Nazis, which is just so ludicrous it is untrue. Are they even attempting to come up with some sort of answer to the Israel/Palestine problem with prejudices like that?

As I said before Fatah was corrupt when it was in charge in the late 90's that is one reason why Hamas got into power, it is not solely down to Israel and her actions.

 

[coventrygull]

Talking of being neutral

“Israel’s Gaza Affair” by BNP Leader Nick Griffin : The British National Party

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

They may not say it but they only think of Israeli actions/agressions, the Palestinians/PLO are not whiter than white. The PLO targetted passenger airlines in the late 70's and 80's are you saying civilians weren't on board those planes?

Don't be daft. Are you saying that is a justification for Israel killing Palestinian children today. Of course not.

Just read through some of the posts on the threads some have even compared the Israelis' to the Nazis, which is just so ludicrous it is untrue. Are they even attempting to come up with some sort of answer to the Israel/Palestine problem with prejudices like that?

You posted that. But when you look at Gaza the word ghetto does come to mind. And if Israel did not see that coming it was not very bright.

As I said before Fatah was corrupt when it was in charge in the late 90's that is one reason why Hamas got into power, it is not solely down to Israel and her actions.

Of course it isn't solely down to her actions. But as the biggest kid in the playground Israel could have helped create a far different atmosphere in the area that it did.

 

[simmo]

Don't be daft. Are you saying that is a justification for Israel killing Palestinian children today. Of course not.


No you don't be daft. How can Hamas rockets launched randomly into Israel not be indiscriminate in whom they target too and therefore could kill Israeli children, these are not smart devices in any way shape or form. I actually do not believe (and hope) that the intended target of these rockets are Israeli children however children could be killed, but the same is true of the Israelis action in my opinion they are not targetting Palestinian children, they are targetting the buildings where they believe Hamas is located.

In your heart of hearts do you truly believe that the Israelis are targetting Palestinian children?

Or like I have said before they are the unfortunate victims of war just like has occured in all conflicts throughout the history of time. It is not nice and it is unfortunate but sadly it happens.

 

[simmo]

You posted that. But when you look at Gaza the word ghetto does come to mind. And if Israel did not see that coming it was not very bright.



Here's a copy and paste of an earlier response in this thread, there are others like it.

Ohhh - aren't we hard !!! Then I should have guessed that as an Israeli supporter you'd want to resort to violence !!!!!!! What was it about swearing you mentioned in a previous post What on earth makes me a nimby ? You're the propaganda machine for the worlds new Nazis aren't you ? You really are a complete uneducated twat aren't you ? Probably about 21 and a student layabout ?

And you're wrong - I've seen 95% of the games at Withdean since we moved there !!! And 100's of games at The Goldstone.

Up the Palenstinians and death to the murderers of young children.

 

[London Calling]

to be honest lads, I bet the perpuators of the missiles don't really care who they kill and maim, does it really matter if you are killing a baby girl, the mother or the grand mother?

Unless you are clearly hitting only a military compound there will be civilian casulties and even here the soldiers have family.