War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[Dick Knights Mumm]

No you don't be daft.

NO - YOU DON'T BE DAFT .......



I see how it happens now.

 

[simmo]

Of course it isn't solely down to her actions. But as the biggest kid in the playground Israel could have helped create a far different atmosphere in the area that it did.[/QUOTE]


In that area Israel has completed and concluded peace deals that hold with both Egypt and Jordan.

You see if Israel can keep peace with these two countries, then surely it cannot be that Israel that is always the sole problem.

 

[London Calling]

[
You see if Israel can keep peace with these two countries, then surely it cannot be that Israel that is always the sole problem.[/QUOTE]

stop being so clever, you will get a reputation on this site................

 

[simmo]

[
You see if Israel can keep peace with these two countries, then surely it cannot be that Israel that is always the sole problem.

stop being so clever, you will get a reputation on this site................[/QUOTE]

But it is true. Israel keeps the peace with Egypt, it keeps the peace with Jordan

and not only that it offered a deal to Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat can no-one else remember him shaking hands with Peres and Rabin on the White House lawn.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

It's funny but I thought of using the phrase Christian instead of white but I thought I might offend the atheists by using that.

What I was trying to say individuals whom should be neutral i.e have no vested interest (and i think you knew that in any case).

Cogito ergo sum: I think therefore I am.

Because as human beings we think about ourselves and the environment we are bound to have views on the subjects that affect our lives and environment.

I fail to see as human beings we can be truly neutral on subjects that affect our lives and the environment we live in.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Their lives are not especially primitive - they have had access to architecture, culture, civilised society, irrigation, drainage, sanitary systems for far longer than we have, it's just more many live in poverty.

One of the dictates of Islamic scholars and scientists, especially Arabs and Persians was to challenge everything, leading to a golden era (from 9th to 15th century) in scientific achievement. From challenging doctrine, received wisdom and everything else considered sacrosanct, they could advance the causes of science, the arts, engineering and so on.

Raids by the Crusades and Mongols from 11th-12th Centuries, the Arab influence across Europe and what we now call the Middle East waned from 13th Century onwards, up to and including the fall of the last City State (Granada) in Islamic Spain in 1492.

Effectively, one could argue that much of their work is still stuck in the 15th Century.

Agreed TLO, they have brought lots of great things to the world.
However the part about still being in the 15th century still rings true.
Iran has a terrible record on human rights with the treatment of woman in general, having your hands cut off for stealing, eyes put out, being stoned for adultery and hung for being homosexual.

 

[simmo]

Of course it isn't solely down to her actions. But as the biggest kid in the playground Israel could have helped create a far different atmosphere in the area that it did.

The problem I believe truly lies with Arab/Muslim nations that have an utter intransigence towards Israel, they want to see Israel wiped off the map this is just never, never, never going to happen and they need to realise it (I mean even if a nation invaded Israel and were at the gates of Tel Aviv, Israel still has nukes to wipe them out).

Israel is a democracy and at times it elects leaders that are no negotation hard arses (Sharon/Netanyahu/Shamir) but also at times it also elects "doves" (Barak/Rabin/Peres) whom are willing to do deals, but because countries like Iran (and Hamas and Hezbollah) have the attitude that they do towards Israel that they have they won't even sit down to the table with these Israeli doves when they come into power.

History shows that these doves have done deals that stick with neighbouring nations, like Egypt and Jordan.

It is up to the intransigent Muslim leaders to realise when such doves are in power and do the best deal that they can to benefit their people and bring peace for their people and the Israelis.

 

[brighton bluenose]

It is not Israels sole blame that Hamas took power, the Palestinians had a leader that galvanised and united the whole of the Paestinian peoples in Arafat, whom was Fatah, upon his death the unity of the peoples of Palestine unravelled into political/idealogical persuasions of Fatah and Hamas, the primary reason why Hamas came into power had a lot to do with the fact that Fatah were incredibly corrupt. Monies that should have been going for infrastructure projects in Gaza/West bank were going into Fatah's party faithful pockets, the people could see this and voted out Fatah and got the only alternative Hamas.

As I have said before the taking of civilian lives happens in all conflicts by all sides, you can't just cherry pick Israel and say only they do it!

Whilst Fatah corruption was a factor in the people of Gaza electing Hamas the mainreason was due to the ineffectiveness and failure of the Fatah leadership, Arafat and his successors, in securing a suitable peace deal and was to all intents and purposes a call for change!

 

[portlock seagull]

FFS. I know I started this thread but this is now ridiculous. Please let it die or f*** off to Middle-East-Chat or the like. 508 posts, most of bile and hate, is about 500 too many. MODs - can a starter request a thread is closed?

This is a football forum.

 

[coventrygull]

FFS. I know I started this thread but this is now ridiculous. Please let it die or f*** off to Middle-East-Chat or the like. 508 posts, most of bile and hate, is about 500 too many. MODs - can a starter request a thread is closed?

This is a football forum.

Like you said you started it. People are much nicer on BNP threads

 

[brighton bluenose]

FFS. I know I started this thread but this is now ridiculous. Please let it die or f*** off to Middle-East-Chat or the like. 508 posts, most of bile and hate, is about 500 too many. MODs - can a starter request a thread is closed?

This is a football forum.

A football forum? You're having a fvcking laugh!!

Out of approx 50 threads currently on 'The Big Board' around only 15 of them are football related!!!

 

[Barrel of Fun]

A two year old girl. Shot in the back by an Israeli soldier, isolate incident? Would love to hear your take on this, 'Steve Foster'?

 

[Half Time Pies]

stop being so clever, you will get a reputation on this site................

But it is true. Israel keeps the peace with Egypt, it keeps the peace with Jordan

and not only that it offered a deal to Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat can no-one else remember him shaking hands with Peres and Rabin on the White House lawn.[/QUOTE]

This is a flawed argument, Egypt and Jordon have done deals with Israel to protect their security as nations and on the back of the carrot of huge US cash injections ($2 billion a year since 1979 in the case of Egypt). The palestinians have no state and essentially nothing to lose.

I don't believe that a two state solution has ever been on the Israeli agenda, the oslo peace agreement placed half the west bank under Israeli control and the rest subject to an agreement that was so ambiguous that it basically left Israel with the ability to as they pleased.

 

[brighton bluenose]

But it is true. Israel keeps the peace with Egypt, it keeps the peace with Jordan

and not only that it offered a deal to Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat can no-one else remember him shaking hands with Peres and Rabin on the White House lawn.

This is a flawed argument, Egypt and Jordon have done deals with Israel to protect their security as nations and on the back of the carrot of huge US cash injections ($2 billion a year since 1979 in the case of Egypt). The palestinians have no state and essentially nothing to lose.

I don't believe that a two state solution has ever been on the Israeli agenda, the Oslo peace agreement placed half the west bank under Israeli control and the rest subject to an agreement that was so ambiguous that it basically left Israel with the ability to as they pleased.[/QUOTE]

Well said sir!

The Oslo agreement signed in 1993 was meant to be an interim agreement for a short period of time until the REAL issues like illegal settlements, refugees and Jerusalem were resolved - fifteen years later these issues still remain unresolved!

 

[simmo]

But it is true. Israel keeps the peace with Egypt, it keeps the peace with Jordan

and not only that it offered a deal to Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat can no-one else remember him shaking hands with Peres and Rabin on the White House lawn.

This is a flawed argument, Egypt and Jordon have done deals with Israel to protect their security as nations and on the back of the carrot of huge US cash injections ($2 billion a year since 1979 in the case of Egypt). The palestinians have no state and essentially nothing to lose.

I don't believe that a two state solution has ever been on the Israeli agenda, the oslo peace agreement placed half the west bank under Israeli control and the rest subject to an agreement that was so ambiguous that it basically left Israel with the ability to as they pleased.[/QUOTE]

How can it be flawed argument it is a peace agreement and the peace is kept? Israel keep the peace with Egypt and Jordan and for whatever reason you are STILL not happy and make up all the excuses under the sun as to why this happens....I should have known that somehow the USA would be involved in your twisted logical thinking.

This is a fact Israel and Egypt have had a peace deal for 30 years, Israel and Jordan have had a peace deal for 15 years. There are no issues on these two borders. Egypt and Jordan have come to the realisation that there is a Jewish state and although they do not like it they have to lump it.

Hamas wishes the destruction of the Jewish state. There is conflict now between Hamas and Israel. Hezbollah wishes the destruction of the Jewish state, there is/was conflict in Lebanon 2 years ago or so between Israel and Hezbollah. Iran wishes the destruction of the Jewish state.........no doubt in your mind when or if any incidents arise between these two countries it will all be because of Israel.

Palestine is different because basically it is the same land but Israel have tried but sadly the peace accord with Arafat unravelled, Hamas (and Hezbollah and Iran) need to think about this fact in that Israel is never, never, never going to negotiate itself away into history and much as you or the Arab nations around it hate it, Israel is so much militaritly stronger than anyone else in the region they are not going to be defeated in a war. If you have a conflict with them you are going to lose and your people are going to suffer badly, which is what is happening right now.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

The problem I believe truly lies with Arab/Muslim nations that have an utter intransigence towards Israel, they want to see Israel wiped off the map this is just never, never, never going to happen and they need to realise it (I mean even if a nation invaded Israel and were at the gates of Tel Aviv, Israel still has nukes to wipe them out).

Israel is a democracy and at times it elects leaders that are no negotation hard arses (Sharon/Netanyahu/Shamir) but also at times it also elects "doves" (Barak/Rabin/Peres) whom are willing to do deals, but because countries like Iran (and Hamas and Hezbollah) have the attitude that they do towards Israel that they have they won't even sit down to the table with these Israeli doves when they come into power.

History shows that these doves have done deals that stick with neighbouring nations, like Egypt and Jordan.

It is up to the intransigent Muslim leaders to realise when such doves are in power and do the best deal that they can to benefit their people and bring peace for their people and the Israelis.

Although I accept you may be right there is no evidence for this. Yes, most Muslim nations have ALWAYS called for the erdication of Israel but this is largely due to what happened BEFORE the creation of Israel... the promises that were made and the polarisaition of both sides and the civil war that existed before 1948. And there has never been an unconditional open-arms approach by Israel (read Avi Schlems 'The Iron Wall'). If there had been then I think you could honestly put the blame at the Arab Nations doors.

There's far too much fear, pride and anger on BOTH sides.

 

[simmo]

Although I accept you may be right there is no evidence for this. Yes, most Muslim nations have ALWAYS called for the erdication of Israel but this is largely due to what happened BEFORE the creation of Israel... the promises that were made and the polarisaition of both sides and the civil war that existed before 1948. And there has never been an unconditional open-arms approach by Israel (read Avi Schlems 'The Iron Wall'). If there had been then I think you could honestly put the blame at the Arab Nations doors.

There's far too much fear, pride and anger on BOTH sides.

I have seen arguments from both sides as to who "owns" the land and the thing is you could take both views and you could argue until the end of time over this.

But what the Arab leaders (and everyone) have to deal with is the reality of now in that it is Israel that owns this land the Arab leaders need to realise this fact, they also need to realise that they are not in the forseeable future going to defeat Israel in a conflict and if they get involved in any conflict they have with Israel they are so militarily inferior they and there peoples are going to get battered.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel, Israel pummels Hamas and Palestinians die. Jordan does not fire rockets into Israel, Israel does not pummel it, Jordanians live in peace.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I have seen arguments from both sides as to who "owns" the land and the thing is you could take both views and you could argue until the end of time over this.

But what the Arab leaders (and everyone) have to deal with is the reality of now in that it is Israel that owns this land the Arab leaders need to realise this fact, they also need to realise that they are not in the forseeable future going to defeat Israel in a conflict and if they get involved in any conflict they have with Israel they are so militarily inferior they and there peoples are going to get battered.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel, Israel pummels Hamas and Palestinians die. Jordan does not fire rockets into Israel, Israel does not pummel it, Jordanians live in peace.

In this part of the world everything is about 'face'. There are very few people in the Arab world but 'Death to Israel' is now such a mantra that anyone who gives it up is committing political suicide. Similarly, anyone in Israel who really tries to close all the obviously illegal settlements will suffer a same fate. The removal of settlements is pretty much the only thing that would allow the end of 'Death to Israel'... that or the complete abandonment of the military option. Only one Israeli president has done that and what happened to him?

Quite simply... no one is budging.

Oh and another thing.... you onyl talk about 'official posittion' not the feeling on the streets. The Jordanian royal family are just about holding it together. Same here in Turkey. Feeling on the streets is very anti-Israel right now but the governement is trying to keep its alliance together.

The question you might ask is why Israel have agreed to make compromise and then peace with Jordan and Egypt ('official' countries') and not Palestine? Could it be that 'unofficially' Israel refuses to recognise the existence of Palestine in much the same way as many Muslim regimes refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist?

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

There's far too much fear, pride and anger on BOTH sides.

True. And it seems to be in too many peoples interest that conflict continues.

Meanwhile innocents continue to suffer and die. It is a mess.

 

[Dandyman]

I have seen arguments from both sides as to who "owns" the land and the thing is you could take both views and you could argue until the end of time over this.

But what the Arab leaders (and everyone) have to deal with is the reality of now in that it is Israel that owns this land the Arab leaders need to realise this fact, they also need to realise that they are not in the forseeable future going to defeat Israel in a conflict and if they get involved in any conflict they have with Israel they are so militarily inferior they and there peoples are going to get battered.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel, Israel pummels Hamas and Palestinians die. Jordan does not fire rockets into Israel, Israel does not pummel it, Jordanians live in peace.

Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders, allows a Palestinian state, does not beseige that state but allows its ecomonic and political development, support for terrorism fades away.