War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[Westdene Seagull]

why dont you people realise you all hold diametrically opposed views and you will never agree to disagree.

And to be honest, you are all making yourself look rather silly as the argument is going around in circles.


.....and guess what...this is a football web site ( occasionally)

You don't HAVE to read the thread ! I'm not bothered about looking silly - I look no sillier on this thread than when I say in the pub that the Albion are playing good football at the moment

 

[Dave the OAP]

You don't HAVE to read the thread ! I'm not bothered about looking silly - I look no sillier on this thread than when I say in the pub that the Albion are playing good football at the moment

now you see that is really silly.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

To me the phrase "Israel should never be allowed to be at peace" is a declaration of war, I am not sure what else it could be as the opposite of peace is surely war!?

The very state of Israel itself is a country born out of conflict and much as you hate it the Jews won and created the state of Israel and worse still for the Palestinians is that for the forseeable future they will continue to win any conflict because they are so militarily superior. You can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about Human rights, UN, Geneva, blah, blah, blah, no-one is strong enough to enforce this against Israel and the Israeli's know this.

If the stewards at the Withdean knew that I wanted to try and destroy them which is what Hamas' bloody stated objective is (you know Hamas makes no bones about this they state that this is what they want to do!) then yes they have every right to use pepper spray or whatever they so wish.

The text I have highlighted in bold is completely wrong, the US, Russia and China are all strong enough to enforce sanctions or military action against Israel, they choose not to. If you add Britain and France to the list you then have the UN Security Council, if all these five nations came together and agreed on sanctions against Israel, it could be achieved.
This doesn't happen because the US and and Britain as it's ally has a vested interest in the Middle East in the pursuit of oil resources. Israel is a good ally in the region for the US and Britain.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Lazy thinking allows people to blame the USA for every single issue anywhere in the Globe. So many people use it as a catch all answer to every problem on this earth.

I mean you could just as easily blame Iran for funding and nuturing Hamas but I don't see many people stating that Iran are the problem!

Who is to blame for what is happening now, the answer can only be Hamas or Israel. It cannot be anyone else. Also for any issues within that region the people to blame are either the Israelis or Arab peoples that surround it. It is no-one else

In the earlier mail I was pointing out why Israel is so strong and one of the reasons is because it is backed by the USA. That does not mean that it is the USA that is causing these problems, the problems are caused by either Israel or Arab nations depending on your slant. If the USA no longer supported Israel all the problems would still exist. Israel just isn't going to give up you know whether the USA supports it or not, it is just even more beneficial for Israel that it does so.

Yet I have not blamed the US for every single issue anywhere in the globe, I am not lazy/naive enough to come up with that argument.
I think the US is part of the problem in the Middle East, but also other countries can share the blame too. All the countries that have been aggressive towards Israel in the past 60 years, the former Soviet Union for it and US having a proxy cold war in the Middle East, oh and Israel itself. There are plenty more countries you could name China, Britain, France etc etc.
For you to say if the US no longer supported Israel all the problems would still exist is extremely naive in my opinion. If there was no US backing for Israel, Israel would be no where near as strong a nation at is now, quite possibly if the US did not back Israel there would be sanctions from the UN against Israel. Quite simply Israel is made strong by the backing of the US, if it didn't have this backing it would be more equal in terms of miltary strength with it's neighbours and therefore quite possibly would need to be more accommodating on Middle East issues regarding Palestine.

 

[Dandyman]

I am going to ask you a question and I want you to truly give me a truthful answer and I want you to think about it.

Do you agree or disagree that Hamas aim is the overall destruction of Israel or not? One Palestine, no Israel.

I think their political aim is for one Palestine just as the political aim for Irish Republicans is one Ireland. Provided they pursue their aims politically rather than by the use of violence, so what?

 

[simmo]

The text I have highlighted in bold is completely wrong, the US, Russia and China are all strong enough to enforce sanctions or military action against Israel, they choose not to. If you add Britain and France to the list you then have the UN Security Council, if all these five nations came together and agreed on sanctions against Israel, it could be achieved.
This doesn't happen because the US and and Britain as it's ally has a vested interest in the Middle East in the pursuit of oil resources. Israel is a good ally in the region for the US and Britain.

Buy you in your reply to me have shown why the Israeli's know that it will never be enforced. You can procastinate and moan and whine about international law all day long as far as the Israelis are concerned, but to actually enforce anything and bring it to bear is incredibly difficult, for starters you need complete UN agreement and the Israelis know that isn't ever going to happen. The only one I can think of even recently is Milosovic (and Karadic?) in (the old) Yugoslavia and that really was only because it was politically beneficial for Serbia to give them up. Honestly, if you think it is that easy you should go and try and arrest Ehud Olmert.

Think about this, the Chinese have committed attrocities and violations of international law in Tibet, the Russians have committed similar things in Chechnya, and the Americans have commited all these things in Iraq. Do you know why they can do this, it is because they know they are untouchable and no-one can enforce the rule of international law, they know as Israel knows that all these international organisations such as the UN are just talking shops, it is only countrys with power and armed forces that can do anything about anything and as much as you hate it, it is Israel that has all the power in that region.

No-one has the power or the will to commit armed forces to go and arrest the Israeli leaders and put them on trial. Anyone that did so would have to go to war and is going to lose their boys in battle for what, this just isn't going to happen. It doesn't mean to say it is right but that is the way of the real world, it is not a nice thought but that's the way it is.

 

[simmo]

I think their political aim is for one Palestine just as the political aim for Irish Republicans is one Ireland. Provided they pursue their aims politically rather than by the use of violence, so what?

Do you think Hamas are a non-violent organisation?

 

[London Calling]

I think everyone has to agree that Simmo

is being highly persistent on this thread, whilst not agreeing with everything he is saying, I am appreciating that he is coming from " a real world" perspective and not just theoritical ..................................

 

[Dandyman]

Do you think Hamas are a non-violent organisation?

I think they would not threaten Israeli civillians if Israel withdrew to it's 1967 borders and allowed a viable Palestine. They are not especially more violent than EOKA or PIRA.

 

[simmo]

Yet I have not blamed the US for every single issue anywhere in the globe, I am not lazy/naive enough to come up with that argument.
I think the US is part of the problem in the Middle East, but also other countries can share the blame too. All the countries that have been aggressive towards Israel in the past 60 years, the former Soviet Union for it and US having a proxy cold war in the Middle East, oh and Israel itself. There are plenty more countries you could name China, Britain, France etc etc.
For you to say if the US no longer supported Israel all the problems would still exist is extremely naive in my opinion. If there was no US backing for Israel, Israel would be no where near as strong a nation at is now, quite possibly if the US did not back Israel there would be sanctions from the UN against Israel. Quite simply Israel is made strong by the backing of the US, if it didn't have this backing it would be more equal in terms of miltary strength with it's neighbours and therefore quite possibly would need to be more accommodating on Middle East issues regarding Palestine.

What you need to realise to is that whether the US supports Israel or not the Jews in Israel are not just going to toss in their lot and give up.

For starters there are numerous Jewish people around the world whom if the US doesn't support Israel will dip in their pockets to do so. Money will talk when it comes to buying arms from a third party and that is just concerning conventional weapons.

In addition to this Israel has had nuclear weapons since the mid 80's (and probably earlier). I have read an article from the BBC from 2000 stating that Israel is believed to have 200 nuclear weapons. These are Israel's nuclear weapons made and constructed by Israel they are not American controlled in any way shape or form. Any one that opposes the state of Israel should realise this and that Israel is here to stay.

 

[London Calling]

What you need to realise to is that whether the US supports Israel or not the Jews in Israel are not just going to toss in their lot and give up.

For starters there are numerous Jewish people around the world whom if the US doesn't support Israel will dip in their pockets to do so. Money will talk when it comes to buying arms from a third party and that is just concerning conventional weapons.

In addition to this Israel has had nuclear weapons since the mid 80's (and probably earlier). I have read an article from the BBC from 2000 stating that Israel is believed to have 200 nuclear weapons. These are Israel's nuclear weapons made and constructed by Israel they are not American controlled in any way shape or form. Any one that opposes the state of Israel should realise this and that Israel is here to stay.

but they would not use them unless the yanks agreed

 

[simmo]

but they would not use them unless the yanks agreed

If an enemy (such as Hamas/Hezbollah or Iran) whose aim is the destruction of YOUR country is 5 miles away from taking your capital city, why wouldn't you use them. You have nothing else to lose.

Why don't you realise it is the very existance of the state of Israel that is at stake here, not the USA. People have an utter fixation with the USA, these are Israel's bombs, they were made by Israel it is Israel's to use as they see fit or otherwise.

 

[Dandyman]

If an enemy (such as Hamas/Hezbollah or Iran) whose aim is the destruction of YOUR country is 5 miles away from taking your capital city, why wouldn't you use them. You have nothing else to lose.

Why don't you realise it is the very existance of the state of Israel that is at stake here, not the USA. People have an utter fixation with the USA, these are Israel's bombs, they were made by Israel it is Israel's to use as they see fit or otherwise.

Simply not true. No Arab army has been capable of destroying Israel since at least 1973.

 

[London Calling]

If an enemy (such as Hamas/Hezbollah or Iran) whose aim is the destruction of YOUR country is 5 miles away from taking your capital city, why wouldn't you use them. You have nothing else to lose.

Why don't you realise it is the very existance of the state of Israel that is at stake here, not the USA. People have an utter fixation with the USA, these are Israel's bombs, they were made by Israel it is Israel's to use as they see fit or otherwise.

I imagine there is a lot of evidence out there, showing the US, facilitated Israel getting the skils to make the bombs. The US could also have opposed but prefered not to.

Of course Israel will use them as an ultimate weapon, at that stage the US will be backing them fully anyway. But as you have emphasised many times, its present mililtary might will ensure that it will be the dominant force and will never be under the threat you have exampled.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Buy you in your reply to me have shown why the Israeli's know that it will never be enforced. You can procastinate and moan and whine about international law all day long as far as the Israelis are concerned, but to actually enforce anything and bring it to bear is incredibly difficult, for starters you need complete UN agreement and the Israelis know that isn't ever going to happen. The only one I can think of even recently is Milosovic (and Karadic?) in (the old) Yugoslavia and that really was only because it was politically beneficial for Serbia to give them up. Honestly, if you think it is that easy you should go and try and arrest Ehud Olmert.

Think about this, the Chinese have committed attrocities and violations of international law in Tibet, the Russians have committed similar things in Chechnya, and the Americans have commited all these things in Iraq. Do you know why they can do this, it is because they know they are untouchable and no-one can enforce the rule of international law, they know as Israel knows that all these international organisations such as the UN are just talking shops, it is only countrys with power and armed forces that can do anything about anything and as much as you hate it, it is Israel that has all the power in that region.

No-one has the power or the will to commit armed forces to go and arrest the Israeli leaders and put them on trial. Anyone that did so would have to go to war and is going to lose their boys in battle for what, this just isn't going to happen. It doesn't mean to say it is right but that is the way of the real world, it is not a nice thought but that's the way it is.

I think we are basically agreeing that Israel is a powerful country and can't be touched, as I said in my post the US and Britain choose not to impose sanctions etc on Israel.
The part I have highlighted I wouldn't agree with you totally there are a few nations who have the power to commit armed forces to go and arrest Israeli leaders and put them on trial, but they don't have the will, these are the big three the US, Russia and China.
Oh and by the way I have not procrastinated or moaned about international sanctions etc. against Israel, I have just commented on them. Also I have never said I hate the fact that Israel has the power in the region either!

 

[simmo]

Simply not true. No Arab army has been capable of destroying Israel since at least 1973.

Finally the penny is beginning to drop.

You have now finally realised this, but Hamas cannot realise this they decide that their best policy for the people that they represent is to have their attitude towards Israel that they do and lead their people like lambs to the slaughter.

It doesn't have to be like Hamas do it you know the Egyptians don't have this policy and neither do the Jordanians.

It is the balance of power, unpalletable as it is for the Palestinians that is the way it is and as Israel has nukes it isn't going to change for a long, long, long, long time.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

What you need to realise to is that whether the US supports Israel or not the Jews in Israel are not just going to toss in their lot and give up.

For starters there are numerous Jewish people around the world whom if the US doesn't support Israel will dip in their pockets to do so. Money will talk when it comes to buying arms from a third party and that is just concerning conventional weapons.

In addition to this Israel has had nuclear weapons since the mid 80's (and probably earlier). I have read an article from the BBC from 2000 stating that Israel is believed to have 200 nuclear weapons. These are Israel's nuclear weapons made and constructed by Israel they are not American controlled in any way shape or form. Any one that opposes the state of Israel should realise this and that Israel is here to stay.

Oh I do realise that the Israelis are not going to just give up regardless of their support from the US.
However if the US had not supported Israel so unconditionally for years then the Israelis may have been a bit more conciliatory when it comes to Middle East politics.
Surely you can see that?

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Simply not true. No Arab army has been capable of destroying Israel since at least 1973.

What about a Persian army?

 

[simmo]

I think we are basically agreeing that Israel is a powerful country and can't be touched, as I said in my post the US and Britain choose not to impose sanctions etc on Israel.
The part I have highlighted I wouldn't agree with you totally there are a few nations who have the power to commit armed forces to go and arrest Israeli leaders and put them on trial, but they don't have the will, these are the big three the US, Russia and China.
Oh and by the way I have not procrastinated or moaned about international sanctions etc. against Israel, I have just commented on them. Also I have never said I hate the fact that Israel has the power in the region either!

But you said it so correctly they don't have the will.

Think of Robert Mugabe, think how pitiful and feeble he is, think what a ramshackle bobtail, pisspot set of armed forces he has. The UN can't even go and arrest him, the will is not there. How on earth are the UN going to go in and arrest Ehud Elmert and the Israeli cabinet.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

If an enemy (such as Hamas/Hezbollah or Iran) whose aim is the destruction of YOUR country is 5 miles away from taking your capital city, why wouldn't you use them. You have nothing else to lose.

Why don't you realise it is the very existance of the state of Israel that is at stake here, not the USA. People have an utter fixation with the USA, these are Israel's bombs, they were made by Israel it is Israel's to use as they see fit or otherwise.

I do think that if Israel would use the bomb they would at first be in consultation with their major ally the US.
A bit like us if we were to use our so called independent nuclear deterrent!