War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[Dandyman]

Most neutral people outside the region know that the only answer is a 2 state solution.

I am certain there has been endless debate within Israel about this and apart from the religious loons etc stating only a 1 state solution, I am certain that the more enlightened amongst them realise that the only way for long term lasting peace within the whole of the Middle East the only answer is a 2 state solution. I personally think that nearly all their Prime Ministers have truly realised that to get lasting peace this has to be the answer (which is why Rabin tried to do a deal with Arafat)

but as it stands.................Hamas whom are at present the leaders of the Palestinian people, sponsered by Iran does not recognise this solution at all, it says it in the manifesto (or equivalent of!) their answer is a 1 state solution, Palestine. If Hamas want to make an issue (i.e go to war) over this by firing rockets into Jewish settlements and create conflict with Israel over it, they and the peoples that they represent (because innocents die in all wars on all sides) are going to get pummelled because Israel is so much milatarily stronger than them, which is what is happening.

My politics are probably the polar opposite of Hamas but they were actually first registered in Israel in 1978 and many believe encouraged on a divide and rule basis by Israel against the secular Fatah. Hamas have also offered a long term truce which would allow a two state solution.

Longer term I would hope for an EU or federal arrangement involving Israel, Palestine and Jordan (all of which are parts of the original mandate Palestine).

 

[simmo]

And that, my friend, is why the Palestinians have HAD to resort to 'terrorism', why Hamas send suicide bombers and rockets into Israel and why ISRAEL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE AT PEACE UNTIL JUSTICE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!!

I may not agree with 'terrorism' but I sure can understand WHY they resort to it!!

But why don't you and Hamas and everyone else realise that when Palestinians do this and resort to terrorism against Israel, Israel gets them mightily peed off with this and Israel if it so decides can come back and absolutely batter Hamas and the people that Hamas represent.

If you and Hamas state that Israel should never be allowed to rest in peace then you and then declaring war and you cannot moan about casualties in war that the Palestinian people now face. Because Israel is so much stronger than you, your casualties are going to be far far far greater than hers.

If Hamas make statements such like yours ISRAEL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE AT PEACE UNTIL JUSTICE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!! Israel would think that you are declaring war. If you declare war you will lose and the people you are supposed to represent will die. Are Hamas representing the Palestinian people in the correct way? Are Hamas not leading the Palestinian people like lambs to the slaughter.

 

[Steve Foster]

You're clearly Steve Foster under a new account. I guess you felt you had to create another persona after the threats of violence you posted !!!

What about an alternative to your solution of Palestinians just "giving in" to Israel. How about Hamas agrees to stop attacking Israel in return for getting the land back that Israel occupies against international law ? I'm not talking about the main part of Israel itself ( I agree it exists as a independent country ) - just the illeaglly occupied lands ? That way both sides concede and the Palenstinians don't have to give in to a bully.

Westdene Seagull, Steve Foster here. No I haven't created another persona. There are clearly other people who see Hamas for what they are, besides me.

Israel does not have to give back any land as they moved out of Gaza completely in 2005, gave the Palestinians grants, funds, resources & aid and told them to get on with a peaceful & prosperous life. What has Israel received in reply - 8000 rockets in return!

Israel will give land back in the West Bank to the Palestinians & a two state nations will happen in due course. However, lets not forget that the issue is not about the West Bank in this conflict.

See you at the Leeds game!

 

[simmo]

In one sentence you are saying "It is twisted logic, you want to blame the US for everything because no doubt you always do for whatever problems there are in the world."

Then in one further on you say this: "It has the land, it has the guns, it has the planes, it has the backing of the US, it has the money, you have none of these."

The US has always backed Israel unconditionally since the state was created with weapons and money, if this was not the case Israel now might not exist or may not be so powerful in respect to it's neighbours.
If it weren't so powerful it may not have done the illegal land grabs and also may have to look upon it's neighbours as allies rather than the US.
So you can blame the US for some of the problems in the Middle East today.

Lazy thinking allows people to blame the USA for every single issue anywhere in the Globe. So many people use it as a catch all answer to every problem on this earth.

I mean you could just as easily blame Iran for funding and nuturing Hamas but I don't see many people stating that Iran are the problem!

Who is to blame for what is happening now, the answer can only be Hamas or Israel. It cannot be anyone else. Also for any issues within that region the people to blame are either the Israelis or Arab peoples that surround it. It is no-one else

In the earlier mail I was pointing out why Israel is so strong and one of the reasons is because it is backed by the USA. That does not mean that it is the USA that is causing these problems, the problems are caused by either Israel or Arab nations depending on your slant. If the USA no longer supported Israel all the problems would still exist. Israel just isn't going to give up you know whether the USA supports it or not, it is just even more beneficial for Israel that it does so.

 

[brighton bluenose]

But why don't you and Hamas and everyone else realise that when Palestinians do this and resort to terrorism against Israel, Israel gets them mightily peed off with this and Israel if it so decides can come back and absolutely batter Hamas and the people that Hamas represent.

If you and Hamas state that Israel should never be allowed to rest in peace then you and then declaring war and you cannot moan about casualties in war that the Palestinian people now face. Because Israel is so much stronger than you, your casualties are going to be far far far greater than hers.

If Hamas make statements such like yours ISRAEL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE AT PEACE UNTIL JUSTICE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!! Israel would think that you are declaring war. If you declare war you will lose and the people you are supposed to represent will die. Are Hamas representing the Palestinian people in the correct way? Are Hamas not leading the Palestinian people like lambs to the slaughter.

Just read in yesterdays Independent that since 2005 when Israel pulled out the UN confirms that Israel has killed nearly 1,250 people in Gaza between 2005 and 2008 including 222 children!!!

If that happened to my people I'd be firing rockets over the fvcking border!

 

[simmo]

Just read in yesterdays Independent that since 2005 when Israel pulled out the UN confirms that Israel has killed nearly 1,250 people in Gaza between 2005 and 2008 including 222 children!!!

If that happened to my people I'd be firing rockets over the fvcking border!

You just don't get it do you. Did you even read my last statement. If you declare war on a nation that is militarily stronger than you, you and your people are going to get battered. Why do you not understand this. Why do you not also understand that innocents have died in all wars on all sides and will do for all time. In an earlier statement that you put it/you declared war on Israel, you cannot therefore moan about Palestinian casusalties, do you not understand what conflict is and that people die innocent or otherwise?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Westdene Seagull, Steve Foster here. No I haven't created another persona. There are clearly other people who see Hamas for what they are, besides me.

Israel does not have to give back any land as they moved out of Gaza completely in 2005, gave the Palestinians grants, funds, resources & aid and told them to get on with a peaceful & prosperous life. What has Israel received in reply - 8000 rockets in return!

Israel will give land back in the West Bank to the Palestinians & a two state nations will happen in due course. However, lets not forget that the issue is not about the West Bank in this conflict.

See you at the Leeds game!

But it didn't give it back and let them get on with it - it's controlled, supressed and bullied the Palestinians in Gaza since it's pullout. Israel says what goes in and what comes out - typified by the Israeli Navy forcing an aid ship to turn round this week. After all, they held elections in Gaza, the people chose who they wanted to govern but because Israel didn't like who won they're killing the elected MPs !!!

And the conflict may not be about the West Bank in Israels eyes but it IS in the Palenstinians eyes. It's all about being surpressed, killed and treated as second class citizens. If Israel treated Palestinians and Arabs as equals then it might well start to see peace. After all it's just banned to Arab political parties from standing in the up and coming elections - despite a court saying it can't do this.

Until Israel observes the rule of law - international, war, and it's own law - it deserves nothing but contempt.

Letting journalists into Gaza would be a good start but then the world would see how brutal it's soldiers really are being and the Commanders would HAVE to be arrested for genocide and crimes against humanity.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You just don't get it do you. Did you even read my last statement. If you declare war on a nation that is militarily stronger than you, you and your people are going to get battered. Why do you not understand this. Why do you not also understand that innocents have died in all wars on all sides and will do for all time. In an earlier statement that you put it/you declared war on Israel, you cannot therefore moan about Palestinian casusalties, do you not understand what conflict is and that people die innocent or otherwise?

It would have something to do with you turning the statement "ISRAEL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE AT PEACE UNTIL JUSTICE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!!" into a declaration of war - it clearly isn't. It's a statement of opinion that Israel doesn't deserve to live in peace with it calls a halt to illegal occupations, imprisionment without trial, land grabs and the slaughter of hundreds of children. Oh - observing international law and the Geneva Convention on war would be quite nice as well.

You're arguing that Israel has a right to use whatever force it wants to defeat Hamas - maybe the stewards at Withdean should be allowed to beat supporters who go on to the pitch, or pepper spray those who refuse to sit down - no, because that would be ridiculous. Israel needs to use the minimum force required to solve the situation - unfortunately it isn't.

 

[simmo]

Just read in yesterdays Independent that since 2005 when Israel pulled out the UN confirms that Israel has killed nearly 1,250 people in Gaza between 2005 and 2008 including 222 children!!!

If that happened to my people I'd be firing rockets over the fvcking border!

If Hamas states that Israel does not have the right to exist and that it's primary objective is the destruction of Israel, does not Israel have all the rights to use all the weaponary in it's arsenal to deal with this as they see fit.

Basically if you wanted to destroy me surely I have every right to use what I can to ensure that does not happen, it is your foolishness if you do not realise that I have all the weapons in the pack and I can use anyone of them at my choosing.

I mean Israel doesn't pound Egypt or Jordan, but that is because these two countries have leaders whom have over time been crushed by Israel previously and have taken a different view than Hamas concerning Israel and how to accomodate it, they have signed peace agreements with Israel that Israel uphold.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I blame the Judean People's Front.

Bloody bastards

 

[simmo]

It would have something to do with you turning the statement "ISRAEL SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE AT PEACE UNTIL JUSTICE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!!" into a declaration of war - it clearly isn't. It's a statement of opinion that Israel doesn't deserve to live in peace with it calls a halt to illegal occupations, imprisionment without trial, land grabs and the slaughter of hundreds of children. Oh - observing international law and the Geneva Convention on war would be quite nice as well.

You're arguing that Israel has a right to use whatever force it wants to defeat Hamas - maybe the stewards at Withdean should be allowed to beat supporters who go on to the pitch, or pepper spray those who refuse to sit down - no, because that would be ridiculous. Israel needs to use the minimum force required to solve the situation - unfortunately it isn't.

To me the phrase "Israel should never be allowed to be at peace" is a declaration of war, I am not sure what else it could be as the opposite of peace is surely war!?

The very state of Israel itself is a country born out of conflict and much as you hate it the Jews won and created the state of Israel and worse still for the Palestinians is that for the forseeable future they will continue to win any conflict because they are so militarily superior. You can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about Human rights, UN, Geneva, blah, blah, blah, no-one is strong enough to enforce this against Israel and the Israeli's know this.

If the stewards at the Withdean knew that I wanted to try and destroy them which is what Hamas' bloody stated objective is (you know Hamas makes no bones about this they state that this is what they want to do!) then yes they have every right to use pepper spray or whatever they so wish.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

To me the phrase "Israel should never be allowed to be at peace" is a declaration of war, I am not sure what else it could be as the opposite of peace is surely war!?

The very state of Israel itself is a country born out of conflict and much as you hate it the Jews won and created the state of Israel and worse still for the Palestinians is that for the forseeable future they will continue to win any conflict because they are so militarily superior. You can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about Human rights, UN, Geneva, blah, blah, blah, no-one is strong enough to enforce this against Israel and the Israeli's know this.

If the stewards at the Withdean knew that I wanted to try and destroy them which is what Hamas' bloody stated objective is (you know Hamas makes no bones about this they state that this is what they want to do!) then yes they have every right to use pepper spray or whatever they so wish.

But now you've truncated the phrase to remove the condition making the phrase mean something COMPLETELY different - the until justice bit is vitally important.

As far as I'm aware, and correct me if I'm wrong, the 200+ children murdered by Israel didn't state they wanted to destroy Israel - nor did the UN workers injured and killed.

Only because the world is too weak to punish Israel doesn't mean it should punished. It's a morally bunkrupt country who's idea of peace is no concessions and everything IT wants.

 

[The Cardinal]

To me the phrase "Israel should never be allowed to be at peace" is a declaration of war, I am not sure what else it could be as the opposite of peace is surely war!?

The very state of Israel itself is a country born out of conflict and much as you hate it the Jews won and created the state of Israel and worse still for the Palestinians is that for the forseeable future they will continue to win any conflict because they are so militarily superior. You can talk all you want until you are blue in the face about Human rights, UN, Geneva, blah, blah, blah, no-one is strong enough to enforce this against Israel and the Israeli's know this.

If the stewards at the Withdean knew that I wanted to try and destroy them which is what Hamas' bloody stated objective is (you know Hamas makes no bones about this they state that this is what they want to do!) then yes they have every right to use pepper spray or whatever they so wish.

Not true, Hamas have stated they would accept a long-term truce. They no more need to "recognise" Israel for a political deal than Sinn Fein need to accept the permanency of Nord Iron being in the UK. Both, however, have to deal with the reality of the situation(s).

 

[simmo]

Not true, Hamas have stated they would accept a long-term truce. They no more need to "recognise" Israel for a political deal than Sinn Fein need to accept the permanency of Nord Iron being in the UK. Both, however, have to deal with the reality of the situation(s).

It is expedient for Hamas to push for a truce now because they are getting battered and obliterated in the theatre of war, this is a militarial decision that they are desperate to take.

Do you agree or disagree that Hamas stated aim is the overall destruction of Israel or not? One Palestine, no Israel.

 

[Dave the OAP]

why dont you people realise you all hold diametrically opposed views and you will never agree to disagree.

And to be honest, you are all making yourself look rather silly as the argument is going around in circles.


.....and guess what...this is a football web site ( occasionally)

 

[Dandyman]

why dont you people realise you all hold diametrically opposed views and you will never agree to disagree.

And to be honest, you are all making yourself look rather silly as the argument is going around in circles.


.....and guess what...this is a football web site ( occasionally)

No that's Brightonfans. This is a virtual pub.

 

[Dandyman]

It is expedient for Hamas to push for a truce now because they are getting battered and obliterated in the theatre of war, this is a militarial decision that they are desperate to take.

Do you agree or disagree that Hamas stated aim is the overall destruction of Israel or not? One Palestine, no Israel.

Hamas made the offer last April.

Hamas offers Israel a 10-year truce - Israel-Palestinians- msnbc.com

DAMASCUS, Syria - The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire.



"Hudna" implies a recognition of the other party's existence.

Mashaal said Hamas would accept a Palestinian state limited to the lands Israel seized in 1967 — that is, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem. But he said the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

Carter comments
Earlier, Carter said that Hamas is prepared to accept the right of Israel to “live as a neighbor next door in peace.”

Carter said the group promised it wouldn’t undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian people approved it in a referendum.

In the past, Hamas officials have said they would establish a “peace in stages” if Israel were to withdraw to the borders it held before 1967. But it has been evasive about how it sees the final borders of a Palestinian state and has not abandoned its official call for Israel’s destruction.

There was no immediate reaction from Israel to Hamas' truce offer.

Israel, which evacuated Gaza in 2005, has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state there and in much of the West Bank. But it has resisted Palestinian demands that it return to its 1967 frontiers.

In Washington, the State Department dismissed Carter’s assessment of his meetings, saying there was no indication Hamas wanted peace with Israel.

“What is clear to us is that there certainly is no change in Hamas’ position,” said deputy spokesman Tom Casey. “It does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, it has not eschewed or walked away from terrorism and violence, nor has it said it will honor any of the previous agreements that have been made with the Israeli government.”

Carter’s comments came after his much criticized meetings with the top Hamas leaders in Syria in last week.

Over the weekend, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he decided not to meet with Carter in Israel because he does not wish to be seen as participating in any negotiations with Hamas.

Carter also urged Israel to engage in direct negotiations with the Islamic militant group, saying it was a “problem” that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with Hamas. Both governments consider it a terrorist organization.

'Problem' with Israel, U.S., Carter says
“The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria,” he said. “The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved.”

“There’s no doubt that both the Arab world and Hamas will accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within 1967 borders,” he said.

In his comments Monday, Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking has “regressed” since a U.S.-hosted Mideast conference in Annapolis, Md., in November.

 

[simmo]

But now you've truncated the phrase to remove the condition making the phrase mean something COMPLETELY different - the until justice bit is vitally important.

As far as I'm aware, and correct me if I'm wrong, the 200+ children murdered by Israel didn't state they wanted to destroy Israel - nor did the UN workers injured and killed.

Only because the world is too weak to punish Israel doesn't mean it should punished. It's a morally bunkrupt country who's idea of peace is no concessions and everything IT wants.

An enemy can put any words on the end of any phrase but if the first part of it is "Israel should not be allowed to be at peace" make no bones about it that is a declaration of war! In any case this really is symantics as this is what someone else said on this thread.

Do you not understand conflict, INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE IN ALL WARS THEY ALWAYS HAVE DONE AND ALWAYS WILL DO. More innocent Palestinians will die because Israel is so much milatarily stronger. The only way that innocent Palestinians will not die is if you don't have conflict. Hamas should realise this, because unfortunately for the Palestinian people at it is Hamas that do their bidding for them at present.

By the way, Israel in a peace accord with Egypt conceded the Sinai desert back to Egypt for peace, even though it defeated Egypt (twice) in battle to win this land. So just to let you know that the Israeli's do make concessions for peace.

 

[Dave the OAP]

is this just a thread where people post random bits of propoganda?

 

[simmo]

Hamas made the offer last April.

Hamas offers Israel a 10-year truce - Israel-Palestinians- msnbc.com

DAMASCUS, Syria - The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire.



"Hudna" implies a recognition of the other party's existence.

Mashaal said Hamas would accept a Palestinian state limited to the lands Israel seized in 1967 — that is, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem. But he said the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

Carter comments
Earlier, Carter said that Hamas is prepared to accept the right of Israel to “live as a neighbor next door in peace.”

Carter said the group promised it wouldn’t undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian people approved it in a referendum.

In the past, Hamas officials have said they would establish a “peace in stages” if Israel were to withdraw to the borders it held before 1967. But it has been evasive about how it sees the final borders of a Palestinian state and has not abandoned its official call for Israel’s destruction.

There was no immediate reaction from Israel to Hamas' truce offer.

Israel, which evacuated Gaza in 2005, has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state there and in much of the West Bank. But it has resisted Palestinian demands that it return to its 1967 frontiers.

In Washington, the State Department dismissed Carter’s assessment of his meetings, saying there was no indication Hamas wanted peace with Israel.

“What is clear to us is that there certainly is no change in Hamas’ position,” said deputy spokesman Tom Casey. “It does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, it has not eschewed or walked away from terrorism and violence, nor has it said it will honor any of the previous agreements that have been made with the Israeli government.”

Carter’s comments came after his much criticized meetings with the top Hamas leaders in Syria in last week.

Over the weekend, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he decided not to meet with Carter in Israel because he does not wish to be seen as participating in any negotiations with Hamas.

Carter also urged Israel to engage in direct negotiations with the Islamic militant group, saying it was a “problem” that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with Hamas. Both governments consider it a terrorist organization.

'Problem' with Israel, U.S., Carter says
“The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria,” he said. “The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved.”

“There’s no doubt that both the Arab world and Hamas will accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within 1967 borders,” he said.

In his comments Monday, Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking has “regressed” since a U.S.-hosted Mideast conference in Annapolis, Md., in November.

I am going to ask you a question and I want you to truly give me a truthful answer and I want you to think about it.

Do you agree or disagree that Hamas aim is the overall destruction of Israel or not? One Palestine, no Israel.