Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've had British builders round, they were crap.

I've had other British builder round, they were very good.

Stating that a person is skilled or not at their profession just because of where they were born is purely anecdotcal and has no relevance whatsoever to the actual debate, but this is the type of discussion that we're going to be stuck with for the next 5 years.

For this, if nothing else, I will never forgive Cameron.

Quite. And all the time this debate is raging the economy is going down the pan. Brilliant. As I have said before the timing is crazy.

 

[User removed 4]

I've had British builders round, they were crap.

I've had other British builder round, they were very good.

Stating that a person is skilled or not at their profession just because of where they were born is purely anecdotcal and has no relevance whatsoever to the actual debate, but this is the type of discussion that we're going to be stuck with for the next 5 years.

For this, if nothing else, I will never forgive Cameron.

Absolute rubbish where this is concerned , its stating that polish bricklayers are less skilled, not because of where they were born , but because the standards and training of their apprenticeship are lower.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I've had British builders round, they were crap.

I've had other British builder round, they were very good.

Stating that a person is skilled or not at their profession just because of where they were born is purely anecdotcal and has no relevance whatsoever to the actual debate, but this is the type of discussion that we're going to be stuck with for the next 5 years.

For this, if nothing else, I will never forgive Cameron.

In my old house virtually the entire street had re-pointing work done by a Polish brickie and he did an excellent job.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

This, this, this all over. And yet in this thread of 390 posts there isn't one single realistic post from an "in" person as to why we should stay "in". I mean without the "it would be a disaster to leave" statement.

We are in - and the case needs to be made by those that want to leave. Unfortunately the ones who are loudest seem to be the frothing around the mouths types. Of course there are sensible people on both sides of the argument - but they are not so often heard.

And Cameron using the referendum to shore up his own failings as a political leader - well that tells you all you need to know. He just wants to see himself through the next election. Will there ever be a referendum ? Not many expect it.

 

[jgmcdee]

Absolute rubbish where this is concerned , its stating that polish bricklayers are less skilled, not because of where they were born , but because the standards and training of their apprenticeship are lower.

You see what I mean? Total drivel dressed up as an argument. The next few years are going to be Hell.

 

[Common as Mook]

Absolute rubbish where this is concerned , its stating that polish bricklayers are less skilled, not because of where they were born , but because the standards and training of their apprenticeship are lower.

That's not what you said though. You said he'd seen their workmanship; fair enough I might add.

That's a massive generalisation though isn't it. I have had lots of work done by builders both Polish and British, bad and good. I have a mate who is a property developer and has had the same Polish plumber and Polish builder for the last 5 years and thinks they are absolutely brilliant, the best he's used in 25 years in the business.

 

[User removed 4]

You see what I mean? Total drivel dressed up as an argument. The next few years are going to be Hell.

No, i dont see what you mean at all, tell me how what i've said is drivel ?

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

In my old house virtually the entire street had re-pointing work done by a Polish brickie and he did an excellent job.

Probably Polish-German.

 

[User removed 4]

That's not what you said though. You said he'd seen their workmanship; fair enough I might add.

That's a massive generalisation though isn't it. I have had lots of work done by builders both Polish and British, bad and good. I have a mate who is a property developer and has had the same Polish plumber and Polish builder for the last 5 years and thinks they are absolutely brilliant, the best he's used in 25 years in the business.

Of course he does !!, he's paying them less, as he's not living in the f***ing places he's developing is he ?

 

[Common as Mook]

Of course he does !!, he's paying them less, as he's not living in the f***ing places he's developing is he ?

He's paying them less, yes. And the places he's re-developing are his livelihood. Knowing him as I do he doesn't skimp either because it only bites you in the arse at a later date. Workmanship is key to his business.

 

[jgmcdee]

This, this, this all over. And yet in this thread of 390 posts there isn't one single realistic post from an "in" person as to why we should stay "in". I mean without the "it would be a disaster to leave" statement.

We've discussed this before and you believe that the UK can leave the EU whilst retaining current trade agreements and the like. So of course in your eyes there is no downside in leaving.

I don't believe that this is realistic. There is no precedent for it and I'm sure no desire for it outside of the UK. I think it would have a massive impact on the financial and political status of the UK.

But then I have about as much proof as you do, and indeed everyone else has.

 

[User removed 4]

He's paying them less, yes. And the places he's re-developing are his livelihood. Knowing him as I do he doesn't skimp either because it only bites you in the arse at a later date. Workmanship is key to his business.

And there we have it, and unless he offers NHBC on all these places , i very much doubt it can bite him in the arse at a later date .

 

[jgmcdee]

No, i dont see what you mean at all, tell me how what i've said is drivel ?

Can you point to the training courses taken by British and Polish workers and show where the British ones are superior, and how?

Can you explain which "standards" are different, and again why the British ones are superior?

Can you confirm that all the best bricklayers you know have these qualifications, and state that these are the reason that they are good at their job, as opposed to the training they have had over the years whilst on the job?

Or are you just spouting your own opinion?

 

[Common as Mook]

And there we have it, and unless he offers NHBC on all these places , i very much doubt it can bite him in the arse at a later date .

It's called competition. Nothing to do with where their from; the Polish tradesmen in this case are offering excellent workmanship at a fairer price. Maybe your mate should have been more competitive in his pricing and not just "expect" to keep charging his usual rates in a competitive environment.

 

[User removed 4]

Can you point to the training courses taken by British and Polish workers and show where the British ones are superior, and how?

Can you explain which "standards" are different, and again why the British ones are superior?

Can you confirm that all the best bricklayers you know have these qualifications, and state that these are the reason that they are good at their job, as opposed to the training they have had over the years whilst on the job?

Or are you just spouting your own opinion?

No , I am " spouting " the opinion of people who have far greater knowledge than you or me.

 

[Common as Mook]

No , I am " spouting " the opinion of people who have far greater knowledge than you or me.

Your spouting the opinion of someone who is speaking from a myopic position of having been undercut.

 

[User removed 4]

It's called competition. Nothing to do with where their from; the Polish tradesmen in this case are offering excellent workmanship at a fairer price. Maybe your mate should have been more competitive in his pricing and not just "expect" to keep charging his usual rates in a competitive environment.

You've gone from having a mate who's employing polish builders to them offering "excellent workmanship" you're either dressing up your story or you've just phoned him, in which case he must think your a bit of a nuisance, as for the "competition" comment, thats the whole point i'm arguing , lets see how much you like competition if ever YOUR job is undercut by someone from abroad eh ?

 

[User removed 4]

Your spouting the opinion of someone who is speaking from a myopic position of having been undercut.

You would argue that brighton play in yellow if i said they played in blue and white stripes , so do f*** off .

 

[Common as Mook]

You've gone from having a mate who's employing polish builders to them offering "excellent workmanship" you're either dressing up your story or you've just phoned him, in which case he must think your a bit of a nuisance, as for the "competition" comment, thats the whole point i'm arguing , lets see how much you like competition if ever YOUR job is undercut by someone from abroad eh ?

Not dressing anything up. Like you, I'm 'spouting' from a mate who has direct links with the trade in question.

If my job or trade was being undercut by anyone (regardless of nationality) I would do whatever I could be competitive and make a living for my family.

-Edit - what your mate evidently did.

 

[jgmcdee]

No , I am " spouting " the opinion of people who have far greater knowledge than you or me.

All anecdotal, and biased to boot. Good that you're happy to embarrass yourself with someone else's opinions, though. Exactly what I said in my first post.

I'm going to leave you alone now.