[Politics] Next leader of the Labour Party

[Kalimantan Gull]

Just to point out The Daily Mirror, The i, The Times, The Guardian, The Sunday Mail, Financial Times, Observer and the Evening Standard all supported Remain.

I'm aware of that, of course, although I think you're overstating the position of the times and independent. What none of those papers did, to my memory, was have glaring front pages urging it's readers to vote one way, editorialising their news pages to the extremes that the sun, mail and
express did, and presenting such one way cases as essentially acting as wings of the Leave campaign itself.

 

[blue-shifted]

This is bullsh*t - and nonsense that has been peddled for decades - the LP was built out of trade union struggle in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century - it was built, not by the likes of Kinnock or Blair or Miliband - it was built by the left, by socialists like Keir Hardie. The 'infiltrators' have always been the pro-big business elites who think the LP is their plaything.


Because most of the Blairite Parliamentary Labour Party went out of their way to shaft any chances of winning the election.


What he is doing is winning back LP voters who stopped voting - and winning support among the youth.


Labour with Corbyn as leader will not win as long as Corbyn allows the Blairites to control the LP HQ and the constituency organisations. He has a chance on Dec 12 if he does a clearout of the Blairites (and this would have been helped if he had supported mandatory reselection of MPs).

The first point you made is true. The Labour Party, historically is clearly a socialist party. It was created out of socialism and ran on socialist policies (whether it called them that or not) for the vast majority of it's existence. The others points are much more arguable

 

[blue-shifted]

Just to point out The Daily Mirror, The i, The Times, The Guardian, The Sunday Mail, Financial Times, Observer and the Evening Standard all supported Remain.

And what was the readership of the remain supporting v the readership of the leave supporting newspapers?

 

[BLOCK F]

And what was the readership of the remain supporting v the readership of the leave supporting newspapers?

If you mean 'numbers', I have no idea.
Anyway, this remain voter reads the Times!

 

[Gritt23]

As far as putting her foot in it I guess you didn't see her tweet about Companies (Amazon etc.) paying more tax because they had big turnovers. She seemed to think Companies paid tax on turnover - not profits.

No I didn't.

Unfortunately, the language used around Corporation Tax is often ill-advised. Maybe it's just because I am an accountant, but there is far too much inter-changing of tax avoidance and evasion as if they are the same thing, and an over-simplification of how you get "everyone to pay their fair share of tax". Upping CT will just encourage more businesses to move operations overseas, and will mean there is far more to be made by people in my industry coming up with ever more inventive tax avoidance schemes. While "closing loopholes" requires a huge investment in HMRC which no-one ever advocates.If anything, people talk about savings they will make on pen-pushers or admin staff in the public sector. Leaving them so impossibly short-staffed that they have no chance of achieving the wider policy.

It doesn't fit with the party line, but unfortunately the reality of these policies is that they are incredibly hard to deliver.

But if you start from the position of thinking you are taxed according to turnover, then sadly you are on an impossibly steep learning curve.

Despite all that .... I wouldn't rule her out just yet. That Tweets is less damaging than a whole load of baggage Corbyn brought with him.

 

[blue-shifted]

No I didn't.

Unfortunately, the language used around Corporation Tax is often ill-advised. Maybe it's just because I am an accountant, but there is far too much inter-changing of tax avoidance and evasion as if they are the same thing, and an over-simplification of how you get "everyone to pay their fair share of tax". Upping CT will just encourage more businesses to move operations overseas, and will mean there is far more to be made by people in my industry coming up with ever more inventive tax avoidance schemes. While "closing loopholes" requires a huge investment in HMRC which no-one ever advocates.If anything, people talk about savings they will make on pen-pushers or admin staff in the public sector. Leaving them so impossibly short-staffed that they have no chance of achieving the wider policy.

It doesn't fit with the party line, but unfortunately the reality of these policies is that they are incredibly hard to deliver.

But if you start from the position of thinking you are taxed according to turnover, then sadly you are on an impossibly steep learning curve.

Despite all that .... I wouldn't rule her out just yet. That Tweets is less damaging than a whole load of baggage Corbyn brought with him.

I didn't see the tweet, but was she saying that corporations should be taxed on turnover rather than profit? Which to me seems to open up a whole load of other loopholes but they would be more readily closable than the ones we have at the moment.

 

[Weststander]

Just to point out The Daily Mirror, The i, The Times, The Guardian, The Sunday Mail, Financial Times, Observer and the Evening Standard all supported Remain.

This.

Why the constant obsession with the Daily Mail (which I never read, not even for sport)? It doesn’t matter what their paper version headline is .... hard copy numbers are low these days. Vulnerable swing voters don’t walk past WHS or newsagents, and get sucked in by the headline on at the top of a pile of rags sitting on the floor. Similarly with the criminal (hackers) Mirror, Express and The Scum.

People read the paper they agree with. All the tabloids push their agendas in faux news, personalised attacks, clearly (to us) editorial, but really propaganda for the converted.

The newspapers are rapidly losing their power. The New Statesman, Spectator, Huffington Post, and a phalanx of ultra biased left and right ‘experts in their own lunchtime’, all try to influence us via facebook, twatter and their blogs.

A diverse world to get your fake news from.

 

[blue-shifted]

This.

Why the constant obsession with the Daily Mail (which I never read, not even for sport)? It doesn’t matter what their paper version headline is .... hard copy numbers are low these days. Vulnerable swing voters don’t walk past WHS or newsagents, and get sucked in by the headline on at the top of a pile of rags sitting on the floor. Similarly with the criminal (hackers) Mirror, Express and The Scum.

People read the paper they agree with. All the tabloids push their agendas in faux news, personalised attacks, clearly (to us) editorial, but really propaganda for the converted.

The newspapers are rapidly losing their power. The New Statesman, Spectator, Huffington Post, and a phalanx of ultra biased left and right ‘experts in their own lunchtime’, all try to influence us via facebook, twatter and their blogs.

A diverse world to get your fake news from.

millions read Mail Online

 

[Weststander]

millions read Mail Online

Because they like it’s inane gossip and/or agree with its political views.

When there are literally 100’s of media sources now, including the crap Mirror, excellent Independent and Guardian, why do those who don’t agree with the Mail’s right wing propaganda, obsess about it?

 

[Gritt23]

I didn't see the tweet, but was she saying that corporations should be taxed on turnover rather than profit? Which to me seems to open up a whole load of other loopholes but they would be more readily closable than the ones we have at the moment.

Except it would put a whole load of businesses into liquidation. A company that makes a loss, and then gets clobbered with a CT bill for daring to have turnover in the first place, would not be around for much longer.

That's why it has to be on profits.

 

[Weststander]

Except it would put a whole load of businesses into liquidation. A company that makes a loss, and then gets clobbered with a CT bill for daring to have turnover in the first place, would not be around for much longer.

That's why it has to be on profits.

I’m in the same profession!

My idea is for multi nationals that are hugely profitable overall across the globe, but return small profits here (due typically to conveniently huge ‘franchise fees’ to their Dutch, Irish or Luxembourg parent), to have the option to either:

a) Pay UK corporation tax on an adjusted profit after adding back a fair proportion of the ‘franchise fee’, to smooth the UK profit to the % profit they’re making globally; or
b) Pay a lower CT based on turnover, subject to provisions that cover businesses genuinely making losses.

There’s an argument that Amazon and Starbucks would then leave the UK. They won’t as there’s far too much money to be made. If they did, honest businesses paying the full whack of UK CT would take their place over time.

 

[blue-shifted]

Except it would put a whole load of businesses into liquidation. A company that makes a loss, and then gets clobbered with a CT bill for daring to have turnover in the first place, would not be around for much longer.

That's why it has to be on profits.

Well, yes, it’s a massive downside

But then having two tiers of organisations, the ones who pay tax and the ones who choose not to isn’t really ideal either is it.

I’m sure there’s a taxation thread somewhere this would fit better anyway.

 

[blue-shifted]

Because they like it’s inane gossip and/or agree with its political views.

When there are literally 100’s of media sources now, including the crap Mirror, excellent Independent and Guardian, why do those who don’t agree with the Mail’s right wing propaganda, obsess about it?

Because the nature of the propaganda is so extreme, you can’t really not call them out on it.

Because millions believe it

 

[Uh_huh_him]

This.

Why the constant obsession with the Daily Mail (which I never read, not even for sport)? It doesn’t matter what their paper version headline is .... hard copy numbers are low these days. Vulnerable swing voters don’t walk past WHS or newsagents, and get sucked in by the headline on at the top of a pile of rags sitting on the floor. Similarly with the criminal (hackers) Mirror, Express and The Scum.

People read the paper they agree with. All the tabloids push their agendas in faux news, personalised attacks, clearly (to us) editorial, but really propaganda for the converted.

The newspapers are rapidly losing their power. The New Statesman, Spectator, Huffington Post, and a phalanx of ultra biased left and right ‘experts in their own lunchtime’, all try to influence us via facebook, twatter and their blogs.

A diverse world to get your fake news from.

Regardless of the number of people reading the newspapers, they still set the daily political agenda.
You don't have to read a paper (I don't nor do I watch television news anymore) to know that Corbyn is an antisemitic, IRA loving, Loony Leftie.
Television and Online news outlets take their lead from the papers. Their influence over public opinion is as pervasive as it always has been.
Most newspaper owners run a range of media companies.
The agenda will always be set by people with the power to influence public opinion.

It is naive to think that these powerful organisations are preaching to the converted.
It's a bit like saying Coke is the biggest selling soft drink worldwide, because it is the nicest tasting beverage.

 

[Ding Dong !]

Stranger things have happened I suppose, but it looks like Jezza will finally meet his Waterloo on the 12th December.

If that is the case, who is likely to be next Labour leader and will they manage to wrest control of Labour back from Momentum? Or will Jezza just carry on? Surely he can't, can he?

Please let it be Diane Abbott...............................................just for the comedy value.

 

[aolstudios]

Ive only ever voted Labour and hes done enough for me not to vote for labour.

This.
I'm ****ing furious

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

If that is what you believe, JRG, fair enough.
Trouble is, if you want to change things, you have to be in power and to be in power, you have to convince enough of the population to vote for you. Thereby lies the problem for the far left, anti capitalists. Most ordinary folk don't want this kind of regime in charge of the UK and I don't reckon there will ever be enough JRG' s to vote for a revolution such as you wish for.

Revolutions never come about by voting - ask the millions demonstrating at the moment in Hong Kong, Catalonia, Chile, Lebanon etc.

For what it is worth, I really don't believe your revolution would result in Utopia. Do you? The track record doesn't look promising.
Anyway, this old capitalist has got to go out, fetch the grandson from nursery and perhaps spend a little of my ill-gotten gains on a cup of tea and maybe even a piece of cake, so, in the meantime, good luck with your plotting!

Who said anything about a Utopia - I want a society where 99% of the population are not impacted by the decisions of the 0.01% - they have screwed us over too many time. As for the track record - look at the track record for capitalism - with destroying the planet currently top of the list - and it goes on from there. If capitalism is the best we can do they we are all royally screwed. And by the way - socialists don't plot - they are extremely open about their objectives (unlike the elites who pretend to have the interests of working class people at heart).

And from this old socialist - enjoy your evening with your grandson (and I hope that the cost of the nursery isn't equivalent to a mortgage - which it is here in Ireland).

 

[Wardy's twin]

this is genius analysis: what ever happens to Brexit everything will be bad.

it will be if the Tories stay in, which they will if the Remain groups don't get their act together and work as one. It means ditching Corbyn not necessarily because he is bad but because he is perceived to be weak and indecisive and perception is everything in politics (note he is not a remainer anyway) .Then get a proper remain alliance to win the election, stop Brexit and then HOPE that common sense prevails and those that have joined together stay together to put through some sensible longer term policies putting focus on a) the benefits system b) save the NHS c) addressing the issues that have led to BREXIT d) reform education so that people are trained for jobs e) house building plan f) look at how we can improve law and order.

 

[blue-shifted]

The thing is, if JC did get binned off, the tabloids fire would be just as strong on whoever replaced him and they would find themselves similarly mired.

 

[Wardy's twin]

And do you really believe that the Tories are the only ones screwing the average person?

It was the EU's decision to bail out the European banking system - and the austerity policies imposed by the EU and implemented by the Tories and LibDems have caused the deaths of 130,000 people in the UK in the last ten years (and by the way - the Blairites and the SNP, not to talk about the sectarian bigots of the DUP, have all supported the same policies).

not sure where you get the figure of 130000 deaths from., what's the source for that.

I don't know any of the wealthy bankers personally but what I have read about them and the way they work i find it obnoxious, however, I am also aware that Banking had become one of our majority industries and hence a source of tax revenue. If the banks had not been bailed out we would have been in deep shit. It is also an industry which will be greatly threatened by a move out the EU.

I assume from your statement that you would like to see a left wing government come in, not sure what policies you would implement. The problem with the extreme left is that it no longer reflects the thinking of most people. Generally people are better off than they have ever been and most are willing to see some of that wealth redistributed but once you start threatening a larger percentage then you lose their support and that's why Corbyn won't get elected.

Its an interesting dilemma because in your opinion I am probably a red tory whilst in my opinion its people like yourself who actually keeping the Tories in government by weakening the labour party which under Blair was successful in many ways.