[Politics] Next leader of the Labour Party

[London Irish]

There are regular Labour voters here who’ve made it plain they don’t rate Corbyn in the slightest, they’ve spelt out why.

The overriding point - with Austerity and 4 years of Brexit uncertainty/fatigue, Labour should be out of sight in the polls exactly like 1997, heading for a landslide.

Why isn’t the lead up to the 1997 GE being replicated? Something huge is amiss.

Because Brexit is popular? You remember Remain LOST the 2016 referendum, right? Jeez this really is not that hard to understand. And you are totally ignoring the fact that Corbyn in 2017 was already responsible for the biggest leap in the Labour vote since 1945. You can disagree with his politics but not misrepresent his achievements

 

[Weststander]

As said above, it was the voters. You might stay in power, but you have to ask why you drop 3.5m votes between elections if 'things are going well'. The press nailed 'Tory-lite' as a thing to be fair, it suited a narrative, then after the financial crash it was irresponsible spending not 'Tory-lite' that caused it. This really had nothing to do with the hard left. This was moderates in the party wanting some semblance of Labour values. Why do you think Brown wanted to wrestle back control from Blair - he wasn't hard left.

Brown and Blair - I thought it was more a personal thing, where Brown bitterly felt that Blair reneged on his infamous 1994 promise made in the Granita restaurant in Islington .... purportedly to act as a quasi partnership together in Downing Street, and with Blair to step down far earlier than he did.

 

[Weststander]

Because Brexit is popular? You remember Remain LOST the 2016 referendum, right? Jeez this really is not that hard to understand. And you are totally ignoring the fact that Corbyn in 2017 was already responsible for the biggest leap in the Labour vote since 1945. You can disagree with his politics but not misrepresent his achievements

Are we heading to a Labour landslide in December 12th? That would be a tangible achievement.

 

[London Irish]

?? - You are trying to say that the Media's support of the Tories is disproven because Labour did well in 2017?
Against the weakest Tory government/leader in living memory?


rightyho..

May’s polling vastly exceeded Cameron’s and now Johnson’s. She cleverly took votes from both the centre and right, she was a formidable opponent to Labour and your comments on her smack of pretty useless complacency

 

[London Irish]

Are we heading to a Labour landslide in December 12th? That would be a tangible achievement.

Destroying May’s majority is already a tangible achievement for Corbyn. Without it, we would already be out of the European Union, how unimportant eh

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

not sure where you get the figure of 130000 deaths from., what's the source for that.

I don't make statements like this without evidence - IPPR report

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/perfect-storm-austerity-behind-130000-deaths-uk-ippr-report

I don't know any of the wealthy bankers personally but what I have read about them and the way they work i find it obnoxious, however, I am also aware that Banking had become one of our majority industries and hence a source of tax revenue. If the banks had not been bailed out we would have been in deep shit. It is also an industry which will be greatly threatened by a move out the EU.

This is the pandering excuse that is always made - the banks wrecked the economy - they were bailed out by the troika and working class people had to and still are carrying the can.

We get the same arguments in Ireland - Apple employs 6,000 workers in Ireland - Apple currently owes the Irish government €14.3billion in unpaid tax that the EU court have ordered them to pay because of a tax dodge facilitated by the Irish government. Not alone have the Irish government refusing to collect the tax - the government are actually appealing the ruling and have spent more than €10million in funding the appeal. The argument being used is that if we collect the tax that Apple owes (and they are only one of dozens of conglomerates who owe €billions in tax to the Irish government) they will pack their bags and leave. Apple owe almost €2.5million in tax for every worker they employ in Ireland yet the Irish government is saying 'we'll bend over and you shove it as far up our rear-end as you can get it - because we will do whatever you want'.

The time of being held to ransom by the banks and the conglomerates has to end - and the time to start doing that is now.

I assume from your statement that you would like to see a left wing government come in, not sure what policies you would implement. The problem with the extreme left is that it no longer reflects the thinking of most people. Generally people are better off than they have ever been and most are willing to see some of that wealth redistributed but once you start threatening a larger percentage then you lose their support and that's why Corbyn won't get elected.

To be honest - this is bullsh*t - do you think that the 120million people in 1917 feudal Russia were raving communists? The 'extreme left' is never an option until it becomes the only option. The only people threatened by socialist change are the 1% of the global population who control more than half the wealth of the planet - everyone else would benefit.

Its an interesting dilemma because in your opinion I am probably a red tory whilst in my opinion its people like yourself who actually keeping the Tories in government by weakening the labour party which under Blair was successful in many ways.

The Blairites were successful only in terms of their own careers - the British working class got zero benefit from their success - as is the case with any government representing the interests of the elites.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What happened in June 2017 then, remember when the Labour Party got the biggest increase in its vote since 1945? Facts are such inconvenient things

You were doing so well and then you went ans spoilt it by referring to the great Labout general election victory of 2017. As a momentum spokesman said recently on radio 5, 'we won'.

When the starving chldren of war torn Biafra were given emergency nutrition they experienced the biggest increase in their weight since the war began. Need I continue?

 

[Weststander]

Destroying May’s majority is already a tangible achievement for Corbyn. Without it, we would already be out of the European Union, how unimportant eh

What is your own view on the EU?

Does it concur with that of Corbyn ... a club designed for big business and the rich, with freedom of movement leading to a race to bottom on employee wages and strength?

Corbyn and the EU are precious, but there’s a huge contradiction there. Corbyn had spent the last 40 years opposing our membership.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

May’s polling vastly exceeded Cameron’s and now Johnson’s. She cleverly took votes from both the centre and right, she was a formidable opponent to Labour and your comments on her smack of pretty useless complacency

May's polling in what? her leadership campaign? Or in the completely irrelevant pre-election polls?
Clearly not in the general election where she failed miserably.

A formidable opponent to labour?
Do you mean in the general election, that Labour made huge gains in?

Sorry but you've completely lost me..

 

[NooBHA]

Enjoy your drink - but just to make a comment on this - if capitalism is the best system we've got then the planet is f*cked - now an old capitalist like you and an old socialist like me mightn't haven't to worry about it too much - but I dare say that your grandson and my beautiful grand-daughter will face the consequences.

Your new found friendship with [MENTION=13368]BLOCK F[/MENTION] isn't necessary doomed to failure - Capitalism and Left Wing Socialism are not ''mutually exclusive'' Personally I am and Advocate of both and they can and should run in unison.

If by any good fortune and I hope they do, Labour win power in this Election then what they need to do is to embrace ''Capitalism'' and the wealth it creates and then ''Tax it Aggressively'' in order to distribute some of that wealth to the less fortunate in society who can't find work or who are physically unable to. That's how Left Wing Socialist in my opinion should be operating. Embrace Capitalism and make it work for them.

All this scare mongering about Big Businesses moving their offices elsewhere if Corporation Taxes are raised. It won't happen. Yes some might leave but most of the larger companies actually trade all round the world it would be really simple to tax their income on every transaction in the UK at the ''Point of Sale'' at source the way that the US Operates with foreign Nationals working in the US - And if they find the loopholes to avoid this then make sure the ''Manpower'' is readily available to close the loopholes down quickly - If they are not closed down quick enough then tax them retrospectively and seize their UK Assets to pay the tax and Chase Tax Liabilities through the International Courts, if necessary.

You can have an FT Inspector spend 20 Manpower hours chasing and individual on a Section 9A Enquiry and possibly yield a meagre £5K Extra Tax and NIC - Those 20 Manpower hours spent on and Enquiry on a company like Starbucks could potentially yield several hundred million in extra tax and NIC plus Penalties - Target the Big Bucks and use HMRC manpower more efficiently

 

[Wardy's twin]

Ironically, it is.

I’m not sure “far right” is the right term, I reserve that for the BNP, fascists, right wing racists, Trump’s hardcore support, right wing anti-semites. But we’re heading for a Conservative Party of nationalist MP’s, it remains to be seen if they win the GE what else they do.

I hope no single party gets a very significant overall majority, it would lead to an unchecked ideological path to the right or left.

the ERG are far right and they are driving the Tory party at the moment they are a long way from people like John Major and a million miles from Ken Clarke. Its not just nationalism though.

 

[Weststander]

the ERG are far right and they are driving the Tory party at the moment they are a long way from people like John Major and a million miles from Ken Clarke. Its not just nationalism though.

I know. I just don’t know what the real policies from both main parties are at this point, should they gain an overall majority. For example, on the wide array of taxes.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Your new found friendship with [MENTION=13368]BLOCK F[/MENTION] isn't necessary doomed to failure - Capitalism and Left Wing Socialism are not ''mutually exclusive'' Personally I am and Advocate of both and they can and should run in unison.

If by any good fortune and I hope they do, Labour win power in this Election then what they need to do is to embrace ''Capitalism'' and the wealth it creates and then ''Tax it Aggressively'' in order to distribute some of that wealth to the less fortunate in society who can't find work or who are physically unable to. That's how Left Wing Socialist in my opinion should be operating. Embrace Capitalism and make it work for them.

All this scare mongering about Big Businesses moving their offices elsewhere if Corporation Taxes are raised. It won't happen. Yes some might leave but most of the larger companies actually trade all round the world it would be really simple to tax their income on every transaction in the UK at the ''Point of Sale'' at source the way that the US Operates with foreign Nationals working in the US - And if they find the loopholes to avoid this then make sure the ''Manpower'' is readily available to close the loopholes down quickly - If they are not closed down quick enough then tax them retrospectively and seize their UK Assets to pay the tax and Chase Tax Liabilities through the International Courts, if necessary.

You can have an FT Inspector spend 20 Manpower hours chasing and individual on a Section 9A Enquiry and possibly yield a meagre £5K Extra Tax and NIC - Those 20 Manpower hours spent on and Enquiry on a company like Starbucks could potentially yield several hundred million in extra tax and NIC plus Penalties - Target the Big Bucks and use HMRC manpower more efficiently

Captialism cannot be 'reformed' - social democrats have been trying to do it for a century and it inevitably ends up with pale pink Tories like the Blairites. Capitalism benefits the 1% at the expense of the 99%. In terms of exploitation little has change since the eighteenth century - except for the fact that trade unions were a major for over the past century restricting what the elites could impose - something that has been in decline thanks to the role of the Blairites in the trade unions as well as the LP (and their ilk in other countries as well). Once you compromise - the level of compromise is all that has to be decided and that inevitably leads to working class people being screwed.

 

[beorhthelm]

We get the same arguments in Ireland - Apple employs 6,000 workers in Ireland - Apple currently owes the Irish government €14.3billion in unpaid tax that the EU court have ordered them to pay because of a tax dodge facilitated by the Irish government. Not alone have the Irish government refusing to collect the tax - the government are actually appealing the ruling and have spent more than €10million in funding the appeal. The argument being used is that if we collect the tax that Apple owes (and they are only one of dozens of conglomerates who owe €billions in tax to the Irish government) they will pack their bags and leave. Apple owe almost €2.5million in tax for every worker they employ in Ireland yet the Irish government is saying 'we'll bend over and you shove it as far up our rear-end as you can get it - because we will do whatever you want'.

The time of being held to ransom by the banks and the conglomerates has to end - and the time to start doing that is now.

not really ransom though. Ireland have their tax laws and they are favourable to businesses operating across EU, as they dont tax them on the non-Irish revenue. The EU have told the Irish they have to change their tax rules to make Apple pay something. you can be relatively sure that without their tax regime, those companies wouldnt base in Ireland, remains to be seen if they move but wouldnt expect more investment.

and as one of the global top 1% you probably are, how much would you be willing to share with the other 99%?

 

[NooBHA]

Captialism cannot be 'reformed' - social democrats have been trying to do it for a century and it inevitably ends up with pale pink Tories like the Blairites. Capitalism benefits the 1% at the expense of the 99%. In terms of exploitation little has change since the eighteenth century - except for the fact that trade unions were a major for over the past century restricting what the elites could impose - something that has been in decline thanks to the role of the Blairites in the trade unions as well as the LP (and their ilk in other countries as well). Once you compromise - the level of compromise is all that has to be decided and that inevitably leads to working class people being screwed.

I don't suggest reforming Capitalism. I say tax it's Proceeds to f#ck and use that tax to benefit that other misfortunate you refer to.

That's why people in the Multi National Companies are running scared if Corbyn because that's what he is threatening to do.

We are in agreement buddy. I know where you are coming from. The only thing we seem to disagree on is that I think Capitalism can be utilised to the Benefit of Socialism if Government Leaders are brave

 

[Weststander]

not really ransom though. Ireland have their tax laws and they are favourable to businesses operating across EU, as they dont tax them on the non-Irish revenue. The EU have told the Irish they have to change their tax rules to make Apple pay something. you can be relatively sure that without their tax regime, those companies wouldnt base in Ireland, remains to be seen if they move but wouldnt expect more investment.

and as one of the global top 1% you probably are, how much would you be willing to share with the other 99%?

This. The same in the Netherlands and Luxembourg, providing an EU tax shelter for huge American multinationals, attracting them with a negligible tax company tax rate on their European profits. The benefit to those nations, some employment and not insignificant tax yield.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

That doesn't really make sense. Cameron got 10.7m then 11.3m. That is more than Blair got in 2001 and 2005. There was no reason for New Labour's vote to have dropped off so dramatically. Thatcher won a landslide in 1979 but strengethened her vote in 1983 and 1987 - she never dipped below 13m. Why did 3.5m then 4m voters desert Blair in 2001 and 2005? Can't be explained by 'nowhere to go but down from there', too simplistic. We'll find out if they are a genuine alternative in just over a month.

Well voter turnout crashed significantly - 72.7% in 1983 and 59.4% in 2001. Voter apathy unfortunately crept into politics in the 2000´s, probably because Blair could never hit the expectations that were set... personally I thought his government was brilliant domestically.

By the way, Blair got 10.724m in 2001 compared to 10.703m for Cameron in 2010.

 

[NooBHA]

This. The same in the Netherlands and Luxembourg, providing an EU tax shelter for huge American multinationals, attracting them with a negligible tax company tax rate on their European profits. The benefit to those nations, some employment and not insignificant tax yield.

Mmmmm. I am not sure that Netherlands nor Luxembourg " House " any more Multi Nationals than othe E U countries. They are pretty well spread around Europe and the EU has seen to that.

I will concede that some of the Dutch Colonial Nations do shelter more than their fair share but that's because those former colonies have their own taxation laws not governed by EU Nations. But other Colonial Entities from France UK Spain and Portugal are not dissimilar

 

[Weststander]

Mmmmm. I am not sure that Netherlands nor Luxembourg " House " any more Multi Nationals than othe E U countries. They are pretty well spread around Europe and the EU has seen to that.

I will concede that some of the Dutch Colonial Nations do shelter more than their fair share but that's because those former colonies have their own taxation laws not governed by EU Nations. But other Colonial Entities from France UK Spain and Portugal are not dissimilar

I’m talking about two of the worst tax ‘offenders’ in the UK, with colossal retail sales, often cited by Labour and other politicians as taking the proverbial:

Amazon - European HQ in Lux.
Starbucks - in The Netherlands.

With ‘franchise fees’ paid to their Lux/Dutch parent resulting in minuscule UK corporation tax liabilities, relative to those huge sales.

Exactly the same scenario as Apple mentioned in this thread.

 

[clapham_gull]

the ERG are far right and they are driving the Tory party at the moment they are a long way from people like John Major and a million miles from Ken Clarke. Its not just nationalism though.

Not right wing at all, but Populist Neo-Liberal. They are "New Tory".

A right wing Tory party wouldn't:

1) Throw the DUP and the Union under a bus.
2) Increase post study immigrant student visas to 2 years to fill low paid jobs.
3) Suggest an illegal immigration amnesty to further help with the above.
4) Threaten the UK manufacturing and farming industries by doing trade deals that import cheap goods from non EU countries with low wages and regulations.
5) Promise a "spending spree" to fool the electorate in areas of the country you couldn't give a toss about in the past.

I hope traditional Tory voters are happy with their new party.