[Politics] Next leader of the Labour Party

[NooBHA]

I’m talking about two of the worst tax ‘offenders’ in the UK, with colossal retail sales, often cited by Labour and other politicians as taking the proverbial:

Amazon - European HQ in Lux.
Starbucks - in The Netherlands.

With ‘franchise fees’ paid to their Lux/Dutch parent resulting in minuscule UK corporation tax liabilities, relative to those huge sales.

Exactly the same scenario as Apple mentioned in this thread.

That's the tip of the iceberg matey. If Governments could get access to the records of these small Colonial Nations companies records . What you refer to would be small fry in comparison but they can't. And they won't enter into DTAs ( Dual Taxation Agreements) because the simply don't need to. They get the Benefit of the DTAs of their " Mother Nation" without the need to comply with other international disclosure Legislation.

 

[Weststander]

That's the tip of the iceberg matey. If Governments could get access to the records of these small Colonial Nations companies records . What you refer to would be small fry in comparison but they can't. And they won't enter into DTAs ( Dual Taxation Agreements) because the simply don't need to. They get the Benefit of the DTAs of their " Mother Nation" without the need to comply with other international disclosure Legislation.

I know. The Panama law firm files, and previously the tax cheat leaks from Lichtenstein and Switzerland, revealed possibly 10’000’s of very rich people, and corporations, are involved. From plain liars not declaring offshore assets and income in their residence state, to complex webs. Absolutely not just a UK and USA, many of those named are based across the EU.

 

[clapham_gull]

What happened in June 2017 then, remember when the Labour Party got the biggest increase in its vote since 1945? Facts are such inconvenient things

They have the same approach as the Tories - appeal to 30% then fingers crossed they get over the line.

I have no problem with their ideology, far from it. I'd increase taxes for the mildly wealthy and above, automatically give part ownership of large companies (via shares) to workers, strengthen Union rights, make the setting of Joint Consultative Committees a requirement by law, privatise the Railways and Water Companies, finance a huge house building scheme partly financed by a national savings scheme.

It's progressive and I think the country would be better off for it economically in the long run. However it's not about what you think and not about what I think. It's about the electorate at large.

Unfortunately the vision is being communicated by a couple of 1970s relics who are far more comfortable discussing whether Marx preferred a 442 formation in a squat off the Walworth Road.

That's the problem.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Brown and Blair - I thought it was more a personal thing, where Brown bitterly felt that Blair reneged on his infamous 1994 promise made in the Granita restaurant in Islington .... purportedly to act as a quasi partnership together in Downing Street, and with Blair to step down far earlier than he did.

There were ideological differences hence the Milliband brothers fallout with David representing the centrist side of the party, Ed the left part of the so called ‘Brownites’ v ‘Blairites’. You have to remember much of Labour’s traditional socialist union based vote was marginalised in those years, unfair to just label it hard left as if it’s a dirty word.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

not really ransom though. Ireland have their tax laws and they are favourable to businesses operating across EU, as they dont tax them on the non-Irish revenue. The EU have told the Irish they have to change their tax rules to make Apple pay something. you can be relatively sure that without their tax regime, those companies wouldnt base in Ireland, remains to be seen if they move but wouldnt expect more investment.

Of course it is ransom - the Irish working class have been footing the bill for the fact that Ireland is basically a tax haven for MNC's - Ireland paid 42% of the total cost of the European bank bailout - a country with less than 1% of the EU population that the government was using as a ponzi scheme. A third of Irish exports come from 5 companies and just 50 companies account for 75% of exports. Of the ten richest companies in Ireland - 8 did not pay any tax in 2017 and 2 of them actually got a tax rebate - despite €billions in profits. After the property bubble burst the government invited in vulture funds to buy up property at knockdown prices - we now have a massive homeless crisis in Ireland - and these companies are making €100s of million in profit every year while for years paying a flat tax on their profits of --- €250 - roughly why I pay in tax every week.

and as one of the global top 1% you probably are, how much would you be willing to share with the other 99%?

I am not one of the top 1% - but it does pose the question - how much money do these people actually need?

If you arrived in America in 1492 and you made $5,000 a day every single day since 1492 - that is 365 days X 527 years = 192,355 days - you would still have less money than Jeff Bezos makes every 4 days.

Yet Jeff Bezos is spending $millions trying to buy the city council election in Seattle because one - yes - 1 - socialist councillor Kshama Sawant - dared to support a 'head tax' on MNCs in Seattle on to help fund homeless services and provide affordable housing in Seattle (a tax that was repealed because of bullying by Bezos). Last week alone he gave $1million to the Seattle commerce PAC to spend on defeating Sawant - yet Amazon won't pay a single penny in federal taxes in the USA this year. And if you know any amazon workers ask then about the working conditions in the amazon warehouses - more like Victorian sweatshops than modern workplaces.

So I say - f*ck the 1% - they have had their day - it is time to dump capitalism and build a society with a democratically planned socialised economy for the benefit of working people.

 

[London Irish]

They have the same approach as the Tories - appeal to 30% then fingers crossed they get over the line.

I have no problem with their ideology, far from it. I'd increase taxes for the mildly wealthy and above, automatically give part ownership of large companies (via shares) to workers, strengthen Union rights, make the setting of Joint Consultative Committees a requirement by law, privatise the Railways and Water Companies, finance a huge house building scheme partly financed by a national savings scheme.

It's progressive and I think the country would be better off for it economically in the long run. However it's not about what you think and not about what I think. It's about the electorate at large.

Unfortunately the vision is being communicated by a couple of 1970s relics who are far more comfortable discussing whether Marx preferred a 442 formation in a squat off the Walworth Road.

That's the problem.

Start by explaining to me how the Labour Party got 40 per cent in the last General Election if they are only appealing to the 30 per cent. It’s actually arrant nonsense, the Labour manifesto has broad support and all you can talk about is load of cartoonish and quite childish cliches ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Weststander]

They have the same approach as the Tories - appeal to 30% then fingers crossed they get over the line.

I have no problem with their ideology, far from it. I'd increase taxes for the mildly wealthy and above, automatically give part ownership of large companies (via shares) to workers, strengthen Union rights, make the setting of Joint Consultative Committees a requirement by law, privatise the Railways and Water Companies, finance a huge house building scheme partly financed by a national savings scheme.

It's progressive and I think the country would be better off for it economically in the long run. However it's not about what you think and not about what I think. It's about the electorate at large.

Unfortunately the vision is being communicated by a couple of 1970s relics who are far more comfortable discussing whether Marx preferred a 442 formation in a squat off the Walworth Road.

That's the problem.

Good post, I agree on many of your policy ideas. Honest about taxation, not the smoke and mirrors about only going after the wealthy and large companies. You’d be aware already, your workers ideas work for German corporations.

 

[clapham_gull]

There were ideological differences hence the Milliband brothers fallout with David representing the centrist side of the party, Ed the left part of the so called ‘Brownites’ v ‘Blairites’. You have to remember much of Labour’s traditional socialist union based vote was marginalised in those years, unfair to just label it hard left as if it’s a dirty word.

Brown and Blair didn't really disagree much on politics. Brown (politically) was seen as the natural successor of Kinnock then Smith who had slowly modernised the party.

( Anti Blairites, Corbynisters very conveniently forget that the slow but steady move to a more central position started with Kinnock in the 80s )

Unfortunately Brown is a very intelligent but odd and frankly paranoid individual, ready to get an attack in first before he suspects someone is about to do it to him. Not very electable, it was no surprise that Blair was given the nod against the damaged and tired John Major to gain a large majority.

As a compromise they effectively split the leadership in two. Brown to be in charge of the domestic economy and Blair to do foreign policy etc...

It was always going to end in tears eventually, but its too simplistic to imply that there were "two ideologies" during Brown and Blair.

There wasn't really, just two arguing political giants and split loyalties among the MPs. The divisions mainly caused by the paranoid Brown.

 

[beorhthelm]

Of course it is ransom - the Irish working class have been footing the bill for the fact that Ireland is basically a tax haven for MNC's - Ireland paid 42% of the total cost of the European bank bailout - a country with less than 1% of the EU population that the government was using as a ponzi scheme. A third of Irish exports come from 5 companies and just 50 companies account for 75% of exports. Of the ten richest companies in Ireland - 8 did not pay any tax in 2017 and 2 of them actually got a tax rebate - despite €billions in profits. After the property bubble burst the government invited in vulture funds to buy up property at knockdown prices - we now have a massive homeless crisis in Ireland - and these companies are making €100s of million in profit every year while for years paying a flat tax on their profits of --- €250 - roughly why I pay in tax every week.

conflating all sorts of issues there, to do with policy beyond tax. bottom line is those companies are in Ireland and contributing positively to the economy through employment, and wouldnt be if it wasnt for the tax rules. isnt it fair that taxes get paid where the sale or production occurs? which isnt in Ireland.

I am not one of the top 1% - but it does pose the question - how much money do these people actually need?

about 25k in the UK http://www.globalrichlist.net/. in the developed west, the working class are in the global 1-2%

 

[clapham_gull]

Start by explaining to me how the Labour Party got 40 per cent in the last General Election if they are only appealing to the 30 per cent. It’s actually arrant nonsense, the Labour manifesto has broad support and all you can talk about is load of cartoonish and quite childish cliches ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reminds me of your personal attacks when I started calling out Livingstone

I'm sorry, I do admire your ability to support a political party like a football team but it's not for me.

Labour did well because of their (understandable) ambivalent attitude towards Brexit at the time. The mistake May made was to call an election post referendum.

What that did was implant the split in the country into Parliament, Labour picking up a number of remain votes as a "top up".

Unfortunately Labour have been unable to be politically agile after that vote and build on the success. Cue being destroyed by the Lib Dems in the Euro elections.

Like many of the left, when they get a sniff of power they get can't negate their core ideology. Compare that to the Tories who will adopt any old ideology - they are all about power.

Labour have rested on their laurels. Corbyn's inability to "own" the anti-semitism issue has also been a major factor.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

conflating all sorts of issues there, to do with policy beyond tax. bottom line is those companies are in Ireland and contributing positively to the economy through employment, and wouldnt be if it wasnt for the tax rules. isnt it fair that taxes get paid where the sale or production occurs? which isnt in Ireland.

These companies are not 'contributing positively' to the Irish economy - they are holding the economy to ransom with the help of the Irish political class. Last week a couple of companies announced closure (in one case) and job losses amounting to 850 jobs - it will have a major impact on the Irish economy because it is a small, open, vulnerable and highly inflated economy controlled by a handful of companies.

And by the way - Johnson's post-Brexit plans for the British economy are to do exactly the same thing.

about 25k in the UK http://www.globalrichlist.net/. in the developed west, the working class are in the global 1-2%

Inequality is not and never has been based on global numbers - the impact of inequality is on a country by country basis. The level of inequality in the USA - and Britain - and Ireland - is having a far greater impact on the working class than the poverty in many neo-colonial countries. Some counties in the USA have a life expectancy for men of 48 years (equivalent to places like Somalia and Afghanistan) - directly as a result of poverty, inequality and deprivation.

 

[London Irish]

Reminds me of your personal attacks when I started calling out Livingstone

I'm sorry, I do admire your ability to support a political party like a football team but it's not for me.

Labour did well because of their (understandable) ambivalent attitude towards Brexit at the time. The mistake May made was to call an election post referendum.

What that did was implant the split in the country into Parliament, Labour picking up a number of remain votes as a "top up".

Unfortunately Labour have been unable to be politically agile after that vote and build on the success. Cue being destroyed by the Lib Dems in the Euro elections.

Like many of the left, when they get a sniff of power they get can't negate their core ideology. Compare that to the Tories who will adopt any old ideology - they are all about power.

Labour have rested on their laurels. Corbyn's inability to "own" the anti-semitism issue has also been a major factor.

Facile analysis just cribbed from the front pages of Tory rags that you probably affect to disdain.

Labour destroyed Theresa May’s majority because it was able to bring Remain and Leave voters together.

The Euro elections where only 36 per cent of the public give a shit about are no guide to general elections any more than the council elections of April 2017 were.

Labour’s appeal is precisely to the infrequent voters because they recognise Labour is offering something worth voting for that could make a difference to their lives. I didn’t even bother voting in the euros because it was a gigantic waste of time, MEPs are powerless and mostly useless.

The notion that Corbyn is an ideologue is garbage. His first ever shadow cabinet included Blairites who hated him, he backed renewing Trident as a compromise to Labour voters and Brexit policy has all been about trying to find a pragmatic compromise rather than the sectarian Remainer obsession of the Lib Dems who only want to appeal to hardcore Remainers (but of course you laud).

If you genuinely want to see a change for the progressive better in this country you would put aside your prejudices about Corbyn and back the policy ideas

 

[clapham_gull]

Facile analysis just cribbed from the front pages of Tory rags that you probably affect to disdain.

Labour destroyed Theresa May’s majority because it was able to bring Remain and Leave voters together.

The Euro elections where only 36 per cent of the public give a shit about are no guide to general elections any more than the council elections of April 2017 were.

Labour’s appeal is precisely to the infrequent voters because they recognise Labour is offering something worth voting for that could make a difference to their lives. I didn’t even bother voting in the euros because it was a gigantic waste of time, MEPs are powerless and mostly useless.

The notion that Corbyn is an ideologue is garbage. His first ever shadow cabinet included Blairites who hated him, he backed renewing Trident as a compromise to Labour voters and Brexit policy has all been about trying to find a pragmatic compromise rather than the sectarian Remainer obsession of the Lib Dems who only want to appeal to hardcore Remainers (but of course you laud).

If you genuinely want to see a change for the progressive better in this country you would put aside your prejudices about Corbyn and back the policy ideas

Now who is the cartoon character and sectarian ideologue:

Your personalisation represents everything that is wrong in modern politics. You also suffer from a common attack dog trait of accusing people of something they have neither said or thought to back up your argument. You attack those more aligned to you politically in a way Owen Jones would be proud.

It really is your weakness angry man.

 

[London Irish]

Now who is the cartoon character and sectarian ideologue:

Your personalisation represents everything that is wrong in modern politics. You also suffer from a common attack dog trait of accusing people of something they have neither said or thought to back up your argument. You attack those more aligned to you politically in a way Owen Jones would be proud.

It really is your weakness angry man.

So you make an argument against personalisation of politics and reach back to a 15 year old argument about an Albion manager?

Accusing someone of precisely the tactics you indulge in yourself is a fairly transparent debate tactic - and sticking a few laughing smilies on it doesn’t make you appear high minded I’m afraid.

Oh and nice touch with the bold text - not angry at all. Insert laughing smilie

 

[London Irish]

Oh I see you’ve edited out the reference to McGhee is gone get over it. I guess even on second glance you could see yourself how silly that came across

 

[beorhthelm]

Labour destroyed Theresa May’s majority because it was able to bring Remain and Leave voters together.

best comment of the day. making Corbyn and Labour's weakness of indecision on the biggest topic in to a strength is genius.

 

[London Irish]

best comment of the day. making Corbyn and Labour's weakness of indecision on the biggest topic in to a strength is genius.

Well you guys got to get your story straight, ruthless far left ideologue or ineffectual non decision maker? Can’t be both can it?

Reality is both are silly caricatures. He’s a democrat who cares about how working people cast their vote in 2016 while knowing Boris Johnson’s Brexit is about attacking people by selling off the NHS to Americans and turning us into an offshore tax haven where the rich will only get richer.

Brexit isn’t the biggest issue of our times, it was always a symptom of the crisis we are in of how we create a society and economy that works for all working people and not the privileged elites

 

[clapham_gull]

So you make an argument against personalisation of politics and reach back to a 15 year old argument about an Albion manager?

Accusing someone of precisely the tactics you indulge in yourself is a fairly transparent debate tactic - and sticking a few laughing smilies on it doesn’t make you appear high minded I’m afraid.

Oh and nice touch with the bold text - not angry at all. Insert laughing smilie

But I edited that

Politic is not a religion and Corbyn is not God.

You split the world into the believers, the un-believers and those who can be saved like an evangelical preacher. Unsurprisingly it's a sad trait of the left throughout history in this country to attack more strongly those on the "milder" left as ideological traitors.

That's unfortunately why the Conservative party are the most successful party on the planet and why Labour have spent decades in opposition. They have their ideological spats, but come back together to gain power. Power is what you need to implement policies.

I'm sure that the majority of the people in this country are very sympathetic to the current Labour party policies, but the reality is they are marginally more scared of Corbyn than Johnson.

I'm not. You are not, but the electorate are. Quite why you reserve your hatred towards someone probably 75% politically aligned is anyone's guess and the story of the lefts political failure thus far.

 

[clapham_gull]

Oh I see you’ve edited out the reference to McGhee is gone get over it. I guess even on second glance you could see yourself how silly that came across

No I think it was a blinder, because it reminded me of your support of Corbyn and your insistence that Bloom was skint. I decided to keep it politically focused, albeit it did highlight an Evangelical trait to your posts.

I change my mind on subjects all the time and what I post on NSC is generally what I think at the time. I'm not an ideologue.

Well you guys got to get your story straight, ruthless far left ideologue or ineffectual non decision maker? Can’t be both can it?

Brilliant, conflating two posters posts who disagree all the time to invent inconsistency. You are better than Cummings surely ?

** now ignored again ** yawn

 

[London Irish]

But I edited that

Politic is not a religion and Corbyn is not God.

You split the world into the believers, the un-believers and those who can be saved like an evangelical preacher. Unsurprisingly it's a sad trait of the left throughout history in this country to attack more strongly those on the "milder" left as ideological traitors.

That's unfortunately why the Conservative party are the most successful party on the planet and why Labour have spent decades in opposition. They have their ideological spats, but come back together to gain power. Power is what you need to implement policies.

I'm sure that the majority of the people in this country are very sympathetic to the current Labour party policies, but the reality is they are marginally more scared of Corbyn than Johnson.

I'm not. You are not, but the electorate are. Quite why you reserve your hatred towards someone probably 75% politically aligned is anyone's guess and the story of the lefts political failure thus far.

Again you complain about people inaccurately ascribing opinions to yourself and you then list a long screed of stuff that I apparently believe in but which couldn’t be further from my opinions.

You come out with some very high minded stuff about how people should debate socratically and then proceed to do the exact opposite with bizarre personal attacks. Chill out a bit.

I would only add that if you didn’t hate Corbyn as you claim, perhaps you should be less ready to recycle the rote Tory press smears that voters saw through at the last General Election when Labour got its highest increase in vote since 1945. Not bad for someone the public apparently doesn’t like