[News] Middle East conflict

[aolstudios]

I posted the link to the article which I thought you would at least cast an eye over - As stated, these rape claims come from Israeli Government sources - the NYT and other media outlets ARE NOT THE PRIMARY SOURCES if you can’t be bothered to read the article then I’ll post some excerpts below - I would ask everyone who is taking these claims as facts to read the whole article. in the link above.

And @aolstudios - No of course I dont want it to be true - why would I want it to be true that women have been brutally raped and assaulted? , I find it extraordinary that you do to the extent that you are not even willing to fact check your own X links.

These are CLAIMS of assault but if true, I would want a source of that evidence provided by something other than Netanyahu’s right wing Government at war with the alleged perpetrators.
The Western media have been provided with all this source material from the Israeli Government on the form of a video presentation prepared for the Press - they are claims that have NOT BEEN INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED.

————-

“More than two months after Hamas' unprecedented cross-border attack on October 7, the Israeli government's allegations of sexual violence by Palestinian resistance fighters have resurfaced as headlines in major international media outlets such as BBC, CNN, New Yorker, and New York Times.
These outlets have published explicit stories of alleged sexual violence, including accounts of gang rape and mutilation.

This renewed focus on the issue comes after the Israeli army held exclusive screenings for invited journalists of what it claims are eyewitness accounts of alleged Hamas crimes.

The 47-minute footage titled 'Bearing Witness to the October 7 Massacre' was screened on multiple occasions. However, Israeli officials have refused to share the footage with news agencies to report on and verify the contents independently.

This detail holds great significance. Despite offering extensive coverage of information conveyed by Israeli officials in these news reports, all of them carry a subtle disclaimer: that they cannot independently "verify individual allegations and claims".

In its quest for a thorough understanding of the significance of independent verification, TRT World contacted the UN, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International, organisations which investigate sexual violence allegations in conflict zones, to reveal the methods, approaches, and procedures they employ for verification.


"We are required to gather information from a wide variety of reliable sources (including civil society, victims' organisations, concerned states and non-state actors) to verify the veracity of the information we received," Reem Alsalem, UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, its causes and consequence, tells TRT World.

She emphasises the importance of verifying reports of sexual violence and conducting thorough investigations independently, as highlighted in two previous press releases addressing Israel's accusations of sexual violence attributed to Hamas – one on November 20 and the other on December 14.

Reliable sources

When asked about the crucial steps that investigative teams deem essential in probing allegations of sexual violence in conflict zones, Lauren Aarons, Amnesty International's senior adviser on gender and conflict, concurs with the UN Special Rapporteur, emphasising the necessity to gather information from a diverse array of reliable sources.


All of these suggest that Israel's rape accusations, attributed to Hamas, rely on anything but a wide variety of unreliable, one-sided sources echoing the Israeli state's narrative.

However, the question remains: Can we believe what Israel says based on the evidence provided by these not-so-reliable sources?

Where is the evidence?
Not only are the sources in question but also the evidence presented during interviews, briefings and screenings of footage provided by the Israeli state raise concerns.

Israel has consistently fallen short in furnishing news organisations with forensic evidence, concrete photographic proof, or victim testimonies, relying instead on inferences from its forensic teams and individuals mentioned above who evidently have ties to the Israeli government.
Currently, Israel's case relies on the video testimony of a sole eyewitness at the Nova music festival, detailing the purported gang rape, mutilation, and execution of one victim.

News reports also indicate that Israeli police claim to have "multiple" eyewitness accounts of sexual assault, but they have not provided further clarification on the exact number. Furthermore, it has been reported that Israeli police have not yet interviewed any of the purported rape survivors.
So far, Israeli government officials have yet to provide concrete information regarding the precise number of so-called victims“


Unsubstantiated claims
Among those who attended one of the briefings of the Israeli government was British journalist Owen Jones, who released a YouTube video providing a detailed account of the Israeli state's screening session concerning these accusations.
"Some high-profile crimes are not substantiated by this footage", he notes, adding, "If there was rape and sexual violence committed, we don't see this on the footage either."

In the video, he emphasises the need for independent verification of the rape accusations, stating, "All of the footage in the possession of the Israeli state should be given over to independent journalists and professional analysts to build a fully accurate picture of exactly what happened that day."

However, the Times of Israel asserts that the Israeli army will not provide forensic evidence, stating that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel's overtaxed morgue facilities." According to reports, it is now considered too late to gather conclusive evidence.”

Ok, I've given you the benefit of the doubt this far but I don't think I believe you post in good faith on here. Ever.
Your increasingly desperate, bizarrely massive, hysterical screeds, claiming to be neutral while without exception somehow managing to be an apologist for Hamas, or casting doubt on verified facts that every grownup news organisation have now accepted.
I'm not sure I even believe you are who you claim to be.
There's something off about you. You're either a fake, unwell or absolutely twisted. Sorry if it's the middle option but I just don't believe you any more

 

[Greenbag50]

We have covered this earlier in the thread in response to Islamophobic stereotyping…but suffice to say, violence against women is not confined to Muslim society nor is prearranged marriage - the Indian caste system for example allows child marriage, stoning/honour killings and yet your comments reveal a general bias against Islam.

Ending child marriage and adolescent empowerment

India has the largest number of brides in the world.

www.unicef.org

Indian couple stoned to death for marrying outside caste - World - The Jakarta Post

The 29-year-old couple, from the same village in the southern state of Karnataka, had married three years ago against the wishes of their families and moved to Bangalore and other cities in the region, and had two children.

www.thejakartapost.com

Killing honour in the name of ‘honour killings’

Honour killing’ — also called ‘shame killing’ — is the murder of an individual, mostly by the victim’s own family members, to protect the ‘’dignity’’ and ‘’hono

www.newindianexpress.com

Indian teenager stoned to death by her father and brother because she loved somebody from the wrong village

Police believe Pratibha Khan, 19, was dragged from her home by father Jagpal, 65, and oldest brother Pradeep, 36, who 'smashed her face beyond recognition' before strangling her to death.

www.dailymail.co.uk

As for the tweet above - NO ONE here supports Hamas and have said repeatedly Hamas’s treatment of its own people has been violent at times, always oppressive and non-representative of their needs so this tweet proves very little and, I would suggest, it is actually far less favourable to your arguments in support of Israel than you might think;

As a direct result of Israel’s continued bombardments, 93% of the population in Gaza (50% of them children) are at immediate threat of dying from crisis levels of hunger - Israel has blocked aid, bombed food stores, and in particular have targeted bakeries in Gaza. There is now absolute chaos around aid deliveries/supplies as you get in any famine ravished countries when starving people become out of control in an effort to get food. If Hamas is firing shots over the heads of those attacking aid trucks (nb not killing them) as they drive through the border crossing, then I can only assume they are protecting the supplies either for themselves or for civilians/hostages who are still stuck in Northern Gaza who are sick or dying or both.

I would ask not why is Hamas shooting at Gazans attacking the aid deliveries, but why is so little aid getting into Gaza at all, that is making civilians act in utter desperation for food and medicine.

Lethal combination of hunger and disease to lead to more deaths in Gaza

Hunger is ravaging Gaza, and this is expected to increase illness across the Strip, most acutely among children, pregnant and breastfeeding women, and older people.

www.who.int

Happy Christmas btw - I hope we can all have a truce for a few days

Yup, I do have an issue with Islam in general, as it not a religion which has a lot redeeming features, (not many do)
Now Christmas is over, can resume again now the turkey has been devoured.
You’ve highlighted a point which is not only prevalent in Islam countries, but across other countries and cultures. None of which are in any way acceptable in the UK or any other country which holds under 16 girls as acceptable to be married off to adult men. I don’t want to import any of these cultures or ideologies into the UK, regardless of where they are from and who is promoting them.
On the aid issue, it is extremely sad that aid is not getting to the civilians who need it most. There are three filter points before getting in, which highlights the mistrust of all involved, including the UN, which is proving itself to be as useless and completely unfit for purpose in both Gaza and Ukraine. UNWRA are on the ground in Gaza and at Rafa.
It needs to be reformed for the 21st century.
Gaza is hugely populated or is size, owing to its large birth rate, (1/3 higher than the rest of world BTW)
Israel are fighting for their very existence. I can post loads more videos where there are Hamas leaders calling for the complete annihilation of Israel and all Jews.
I remember watching John Simpson on BBC news in the 80’s with Yarafat etc, talking about peace etc, no change. Been doing it for millennia.

All was relatively quiet for 15 years until 07 Oct.

There is no answer, as Muslims (specifically Iran) cannot live with the Jews in the Middle East, with their only wish is to eradicate them.

Remove religion and the world will be a better place, everywhere.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians#:~:text=Another%20factor%20for%20the%20young,to%201.84%20in%20the%20U.S.

global birth rate - Google Search

 

[Greenbag50]

Ok, I've given you the benefit of the doubt this far but I don't think I believe you post in good faith on here. Ever.
Your increasingly desperate, bizarrely massive, hysterical screeds, claiming to be neutral while without exception somehow managing to be an apologist for Hamas, or casting doubt on verified facts that every grownup news organisation have now accepted.
I'm not sure I even believe you are who you claim to be.
There's something off about you. You're either a fake, unwell or absolutely twisted. Sorry if it's the middle option but I just don't believe you any more

Unbelievable…

 

[Greenbag50]

When it comes to bombs, there’s ‘dumb’ and dumber, the latter referring those that use

I think I've already posted on this thread that I totally understand the Israeli desire for revenge.

However, we that desire can't be allowed to run riot. The citizens of Gaza cannot be collectively held responsible for the crimes of Hamas.

If someone in your family was raped and murdered you'd be keen for revenge too. But I doubt you'd bomb the shit out of a neighbouring town, massacring women and children, in your quest to find the attacker.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd/index.html

 

[Bakero]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd/index.html

Did you read the article you linked?

Either way, you can't hold kids responsible for the Hamas attacks.

 

[Krafty]

Israel are fighting for their very existence. I can post loads more videos where there are Hamas leaders calling for the complete annihilation of Israel and all Jews.

So, do you condemn Israel's bombardment of Gaza in this conflict?

I presume it is a no.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So, do you condemn Israel's bombardment of Gaza in this conflict?

I presume it is a no.

I am not sure that condemnation Top Trumps is terribly helpful, frankly.

I condemn Bibi.
I condemn Hamas.

With that I am comfortable that I have done all I can do, nothing more to see, and I can get on with my life. The argument is settled.

 

[Greenbag50]

So, do you condemn Israel's bombardment of Gaza in this conflict?

I presume it is a no.

Don’t presume anything.
You pick a point I made and turn it around to condem what the one side did or didn’t do.
There is massive nuance and detail in the middle, in a war( and that’s what was started in 07 Oct by Iran/Hamas) which we don’t talk about.
I don’t speak for Isreal and have zero influence in what they do.
They are fighting for their very existence against a group of people who hate them and want them to be exterminated.
Hamas have completely entwined themselves in the very fabric of Gaza civilian infrastructure.
I can post videos of tunnels found in Gaza if you like, that you won’t find on BBC/SKY/Channel 4, but don’t want to as I’ll be a video bore….. but will if you insist.
How can you kill those who want to eliminate you and also keep civilians safe?
It’s impossible
We will not solve this on NSC

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Don’t presume anything.
You pick a point I made and turn it around to condem what the one side did or didn’t do.
There is massive nuance and detail in the middle, in a war( and that’s what was started in 07 Oct by Iran/Hamas) which we don’t talk about.
I don’t speak for Isreal and have zero influence in what they do.
They are fighting for their very existence against a group of people who hate them and want them to be exterminated.
Hamas have completely entwined themselves in the very fabric of Gaza civilian infrastructure.
I can post videos of tunnels found in Gaza if you like, that you won’t find on BBC/SKY/Channel 4, but don’t want to as I’ll be a video bore….. but will if you insist.
How can you kill those who want to eliminate you and also keep civilians safe?
It’s impossible
We will not solve this on NSC

Indeed no. Still, I am surprised and delighted that this thread has been mostly one of considered melancholy rather than extreme emoting and finger pointing. But....no time for NSC back slappery. What have we got? Nothing.

If ever a situation needed a flash of 'Fans United' style genius, this is it.

Any suggestions?

 

[Krafty]

Don’t presume anything.
You pick a point I made and turn it around to condem what the one side did or didn’t do.
There is massive nuance and detail in the middle, in a war( and that’s what was started in 07 Oct by Iran/Hamas) which we don’t talk about.
I don’t speak for Isreal and have zero influence in what they do.
They are fighting for their very existence against a group of people who hate them and want them to be exterminated.
Hamas have completely entwined themselves in the very fabric of Gaza civilian infrastructure.
I can post videos of tunnels found in Gaza if you like, that you won’t find on BBC/SKY/Channel 4, but don’t want to as I’ll be a video bore….. but will if you insist.
How can you kill those who want to eliminate you and also keep civilians safe?
It’s impossible
We will not solve this on NSC

I apologise for my presumption.
I completely agree with your comment and know about the tunnel system underneath Gaza, so you don't need to send me a video.

 

[Zeberdi]

Ok, I've given you the benefit of the doubt this far but I don't think I believe you post in good faith on here. Ever.
Your increasingly desperate, bizarrely massive, hysterical screeds, claiming to be neutral while without exception somehow managing to be an apologist for Hamas, or casting doubt on verified facts that every grownup news organisation have now accepted.
I'm not sure I even believe you are who you claim to be. There's something off about you. You're either a fake, unwell or absolutely twisted. Sorry if it's the middle option but I just don't believe you any more

WOW Just WOW!

There is no answer, as Muslims (specifically Iran) cannot live with the Jews in the Middle East, with their only wish is to eradicate them.

And the extremist right wing Religious Zionists in Israel can not live with Palestinians (regardless of whether they support/belong to Hamas or not) and are Islamophobic

So what is to be done? All one can do is advocate for the removal of extremists on both sides and find a way of working within a paradigm of moderation, understanding, reconciliation and compromises that recognises the human rights of all civillians.

Genocide of neither Jews in Israel nor Palestinians in Gaza is the answer.

 

[Zeberdi]

Indeed no. Still, I am surprised and delighted that this thread has been mostly one of considered melancholy rather than extreme emoting and finger pointing

Except for the repeated personal attacks and abuse against those posters trying to find a balanced, egalitarian POV, establish facts and carve a path of humanitarian perspective through a complex maze of propaganda, lies, racist rhetoric and extremist ideology espoused by protagonists on BOTH sides to this conflict.

All I have ever done is acknowledge extremism on both sides, the right of Israel to protect herself proportionally and the right of Israel to exist. Support the rights for Palestinians to be independent and free from occupation. Condemned without reserve, the atrocities committed by Hamas. Condemned the mass slaughter of children and women who are not involved in the Hamas paramilitaries armed forces. Treated with circumspect claims made by both sides until independently verified.

Frankly I am getting tired of the abusive comments and ad hominem attacks against me personally - I have not done that to anyone on this thread regardless of what they’ve posted - if you think calling someone ‘sick’ and ‘twiisted’ or ’fake’ or casting doubts on their personal identity and integrity is not emotive finger pointing, what is?

 

[wellquickwoody]

Would you react like this to someone from any other minority's experience of racism?
I guess Jews don't count

The lives, and viewpoints, of individual Jews do count, and are as important as those from any other identifiable group.

What should not count for much in the conscience of many nationalities, is the group viewpoint of the Jewish faith. Stephen Pollard (I’m sure you are aware of him) recently stated that people would be surprised at the number of Jews in the UK. I was intrigued, asked myself what my estimate would be, and then researched the answer, I was very surprised by the result. Depending on the criteria applied to identify ‘Jewishness’ there are only two hundred and fifty to four hundred thousand Jews resident in the UK, making up less than 0.5 per cent of the population. Even more surprising is that the total number of Jews is the fifth highest in the world amongst all countries, the US and of course Israel being the highest.

So considering that less than one in two hundred people in the UK are Jewish, why is it that our politicians are so keen to bend over and support the views of such a small minority? Especially when a far greater volume and percentage of the electorate are seen to support calls for a ceasefire, and an end to disproportionate Israeli violence? It seems the voice of the Jewish faith is very influential, rather than it not counting don’t you think?

 

[sydney]

The lives, and viewpoints, of individual Jews do count, and are as important as those from any other identifiable group.

What should not count for much in the conscience of many nationalities, is the group viewpoint of the Jewish faith. Stephen Pollard (I’m sure you are aware of him) recently stated that people would be surprised at the number of Jews in the UK. I was intrigued, asked myself what my estimate would be, and then researched the answer, I was very surprised by the result. Depending on the criteria applied to identify ‘Jewishness’ there are only two hundred and fifty to four hundred thousand Jews resident in the UK, making up less than 0.5 per cent of the population. Even more surprising is that the total number of Jews is the fifth highest in the world amongst all countries, the US and of course Israel being the highest.

So considering that less than one in two hundred people in the UK are Jewish, why is it that our politicians are so keen to bend over and support the views of such a small minority? Especially when a far greater volume and percentage of the electorate are seen to support calls for a ceasefire, and an end to disproportionate Israeli violence? It seems the voice of the Jewish faith is very influential, rather than it not counting don’t you think?

good point , well made .......if we look at the positions of the small proportions of Jewish people within the broader society i think we will find that on the whole they hold relatively higher positions within their adopted societies and are generally fairly wealthy , professional types with all the authority and political clout that comes with such status.

 

[wellquickwoody]

good point , well made .......if we look at the positions of the small proportions of Jewish people within the broader society i think we will find that on the whole they hold relatively higher positions within their adopted societies and are generally fairly wealthy , professional types with all the authority and political clout that comes with such status.

I await the two or three standard responses to your valid comment. The truth hurts.

 

[Zeberdi]

WIDESPREAD RAPE committed by HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7 - propaganda, hearsay or true?

Further to the link, I posted above, I am absolutely not saying these claims are untrue (and if they are true then that’s horrific) just that the bodies found were not examined for forensic evidence of assault before they were burned or buried, nor interviews done with any survivors of the alleged rape (despite all the claims of testimony after testimony) - in fact no survivors of rape have been produced according to EI The one witness on Israel’s video to the Western media claiming to have seen a woman being gang raped with her own eyes also says in the next breath, “ Hamas soldiers were celebrating with decapitated Israeli heads on sticks” - no first hand proof or evidence for that has been found.

Therefore, before taking what you read in the media as being the absolute truth about these allegations of systematic rape and assault by Hamas on 7 October, and before accusing anyone that questions them to be on the side of Hamas allow yourselves the benefit of at least considering an alternative explanation, then decide what you want to believe …but you won’t find it on X or unadulterated form of it in the Western media - the real truth might be somewhere in between.

Please - Just watch the video by Electronic Intifada - it’s basically saying what I have been trying to say above…and what the report says that I linked to …and while I don’t go as far as debunking the mass rape claim myself, I at least take it on board as a possibility that the claims of systematic rape by Hamas on October 7 are emanating out of a very sophisticated propaganda exercise:



This is also food for thought - Are the English translations of Arabic videos depicting Hamas being posted on Social media accurate?

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-captured-woman-mistranslates-captor-threatening-rape-2023-11-08/

EI are an independent group covering the Israeli Palestinian conflict

The Electronic Intifada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Except for the repeated personal attacks and abuse against those posters trying to find a balanced, egalitarian POV, establish facts and carve a path of humanitarian perspective through a complex maze of propaganda, lies, racist rhetoric and extremist ideology espoused by protagonists on BOTH sides to this conflict.

All I have ever done is acknowledge extremism on both sides, the right of Israel to protect herself proportionally and the right of Israel to exist. Support the rights for Palestinians to be independent and free from occupation. Condemned without reserve, the atrocities committed by Hamas. Condemned the mass slaughter of children and women who are not involved in the Hamas paramilitaries armed forces. Treated with circumspect claims made by both sides until independently verified.

Frankly I am getting tired of the abusive comments and ad hominem attacks against me personally, the failure of these to be moderated despited repeatedly reporting them - I have not done that to anyone on this thread regardless of what they’ve posted - if you think calling someone ‘sick’ and ‘twiisted’ or ’fake’ or casting doubts on their personal identity and integrity is not emotive finger pointing, what is?

I can only assume I have your abusive detractors on ignore. A facility that serves me well.

 

[Bakero]

I apologise for my presumption.
I agree with your comment and know about the tunnel system underneath Gaza, so you don't need to send me a video.

I think everyone knows about the tunnel system so @Greenbag50 's videos must relate to something else. If they're legitimate and relevant, why not share?

 

[BadFish]

Except for the repeated personal attacks and abuse against those posters trying to find a balanced, egalitarian POV, establish facts and carve a path of humanitarian perspective through a complex maze of propaganda, lies, racist rhetoric and extremist ideology espoused by protagonists on BOTH sides to this conflict.

All I have ever done is acknowledge extremism on both sides, the right of Israel to protect herself proportionally and the right of Israel to exist. Support the rights for Palestinians to be independent and free from occupation. Condemned without reserve, the atrocities committed by Hamas. Condemned the mass slaughter of children and women who are not involved in the Hamas paramilitaries armed forces. Treated with circumspect claims made by both sides until independently verified.

Frankly I am getting tired of the abusive comments and ad hominem attacks against me personally, the failure of these to be moderated despited repeatedly reporting them - I have not done that to anyone on this thread regardless of what they’ve posted - if you think calling someone ‘sick’ and ‘twiisted’ or ’fake’ or casting doubts on their personal identity and integrity is not emotive finger pointing, what is?

I would suggest putting the poster in question on ignore. They have shown time and again on this thread that their lack of perspective inhibits any possibly of any kind of worthwhile contribution.

Your post on here have been measured, factual, balanced and incredibly informative. I've not been on here for for a while but your detractors are snide and blinded by their own bias.

Best to ignore and move on. Just know though your contributions are valued by many.

 

[A1X]

Apologies if fixtures

South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide

Nation asks international court of justice to issue provisional measures ordering ceasefire; Israel describes case as ‘blood libel’

www.theguardian.com