Don't worry, Labour will return!

[Westdene Seagull]

The binmen pay it too you know.

Indeed they do. Not sure where I stated or implied they didn't

 

[DerbyGull]

Yep that is one word that sums up left wing and Labour supporting people perfectly envy. They are envious of people whom they percieve to be better than them and try to drag them down to their level. Wheras the word that sums up right wing (Conservative) thinkers is aspiration. They aspire to better themselves and are not envious of those that they percieve are better than them, but strive to reach that level themselves.

In a nutshell, conservatism shares the ideals of the American dream. Which says anyone, regardless of class can make it. But what is not mentioned is the many casualties on the way, i mean not everyone can make it to the top, it's just not possible, it doesn't add up. Some people just have an advantage of being better placed/financed/educated etc etc. Doors will be slammed in certain peoples faces, telling them NO you don't fit the criteria.

 

[Pantani]

and all dow to the richest 1% becoming much richer...............

True, does not make it right though. Can this 1% afford to lose some of their wealth, I believe so.

As I have said elsewhere though, the inequality is only part of the problem it is the lack of social mobility that is the key. If you are born to a poor family you are likely to stay that way all you life. Likewise if you are born to a rich family. This second point is also an argument against Mr Burns's hard work mantra. If you were rich to begin with you do not have to work hard to maintain it.

 

[Mr Everyone]

I think, Westdene, you said the businessmen paid my wages. You neglected to include the underclass who pay tax with their giro's.

 

[simmo]

Simmo, you can't ignore the fact he went to Eton, the Eton - Oxford thing, has developed and provided him with an unique education and confidence.

The contacts, the old boy network of the establishment, does no good for our country, but propels contacts into nice little earners.

However, I look forward to the days, whe our best state schools are as good as Roedean, Harrow and Eton.

And our worst state schools are as good as our best.

Where he was educated is irrelevant and it is also irrelevant as to whether he can do the job as PM. The only thing that matters is whether he was educated well. It is brought up by the left out of pure jealousy because we all know it costs a lot of money to be educated at Eton and it something in reality we would all like to have happened to ourselves/our children.

 

[SeagullRic]

Please, please don't any of you delude yourselves that class is not a relevant factor. In theory someone going to Falmer school, who's parents live on benefits, has the same chances of succeeding in life as any other (thanks in part to schemes such as AimHigher, something implemented by this latest Labour government). However in practice, they will surely recieve significantly less support than someone at Eton, who has the benefits of significant wealth and a superior education system. Granted it is now possible for one to succeed in such a system, but still vastly unfair on the lower classes.

I think what irritates a lot of people about Cameron and co is that the percentage of his cabinet who were privately educated is much, much higher than the national average, and thus people (quite rightly in my opinion) feel diconnected from a man who has experienced all of the capitalist UKs advantages- how can he possibly comprehend how to best deal with situations which he could never dream of facing himself? Taking a marxist viewpoint, it seems to me that the exploitation and oppression of the proleteriat (working classes) by the bourgieose (ruling class) is something which Cameron is keen to continue (for example, his inheritance tax break for the richest people in our society).

Quite possibly envy does come into it, but I think what people are angry about is the system of inheritance. If you work yourself up from scratch (a la Sugar or Branson) then most people would not resent that- they would realise it is genuine hard work (as well as a bit of luck) . However, did Samantha Cameron work hard for her status? Did Camilla Parker-Bowles? Did Henry Blofeld? No, they were borne upper class and always destined to be so, that is what I believe many people resent and detest about the upper classes, and consequently the Conservative party (given their close links with the aristocracy).

 

[Mr Burns]

I am glad you have done well for yourself and hard work is a much under rated commodity. However are you saying all, or even most, Labour supporters do not work hard? That all Tories do work hard? This is what you imply and you know that it is a ridiculous thing to say.

Whether you should support those less fortunate than you is an issue that goes to the heart of the left v right debate. I think that you will continue to have your views and I will continue to have mine so will not argue with you on those points, we will be here for months.

Not at all. But its stragne that most Labour strongholds, are also places where people on benfits are at their highest. Off course I'm not saying ALL tories work hard, and ALL labour doesn't and to read that is a ridculous thing.

I'm not against helping people who need help and cannot help themselves. I am firmly against helping people that will not help themselves. Benifits and social security is the biggest expense to the country. Labour have helped create this. A single mother who has children that she can not afford, is GIVEN £1400 a month to house them. How is that right? Not for one second saying you turf them out on the street, but you certainly don't make is easier for them to live in their own home, than it is for someone earning the national average wage. Why should I pay for that, because she wasn't responable? Someone who is crippled, and cannot help themselves, off course its our duty to help them.

Hopefully the new government will stop these ridculous handouts, and make people responsable, not only for their own actions, but also themselves

 

[Mr Burns]

This second point is also an argument against Mr Burns's hard work mantra. If you were rich to begin with you do not have to work hard to maintain it.

So it is envy.

What should smeone born into money do? Give it all away.

Why should they? The money has been earnt, and taxed. If its pased on, surely thats the right of the person who passes it in isn't it.

 

[Pantani]

Why do the left always go on about Cameron going to Eton then?

Utterly irrelevant to whether he can do the job and in my opinion a good thing as he went to a top school. I would like a child of mine to go there.

Pray tell why it is an important issue to the left, if it isn't envy.

Come on, can it be right that he is the nineteenth Prime Minister from Eton? Can it be right that thirteen of Cameron's front bench are from Eton? It would be wrong if thirteen of his front bench were from a council estate in Tower Hamlets, the same applies equally to Eton. He is not getting a plurality of views that is the problem. Not one mans attendance at a particular school.

 

[Mr Burns]

In a nutshell, conservatism shares the ideals of the American dream. Which says anyone, regardless of class can make it. But what is not mentioned is the many casualties on the way, i mean not everyone can make it to the top, it's just not possible, it doesn't add up. Some people just have an advantage of being better placed/financed/educated etc etc. Doors will be slammed in certain peoples faces, telling them NO you don't fit the criteria.

And that is a fact of life. Do you think that doesn't happen in all walks off life. Even in football, a lot of the time its not what you know, its who you know.

 

[pork pie]

So it is envy.

What should smeone born into money do? Give it all away.

Why should they? The money has been earnt, and taxed. If its pased on, surely thats the right of the person who passes it in isn't it.

You are wasting your time with some of these people.

 

[Mr Everyone]

Where he was educated is irrelevant and it is also irrelevant as to whether he can do the job as PM. The only thing that matters is whether he was educated well. It is brought up by the left out of pure jealousy because we all know it costs a lot of money to be educated at Eton and it something in reality we would all like to have happened to ourselves/our children.

I wouldn't want my children anywhere near the place. I know several people who were schooled privately and found the experience over-disciplined, cold and felt hugely pressured in living up to the expectations laid upon them by their family, teachers and peers.

I think it would be a disservice to the child.

To see Eaton or any other independent school as a gateway to a happy and fulfilling life is wrong.

This thread has been fun today. It has reinforced my belief that it is easier to be right wing; prickly, ignorant, assuming, coarse and rude. Whereas the more left, the more open-minded, fair and educated.

 

[DerbyGull]

As I have said elsewhere, my views are based upon my own experience, clearly yours are based upon your own. At what point did I suggest that the benefit of educational opportunities should be limited to age? I fully support your being given the chance to improve your lot, and being given the chance you have.

In all honesty, I do have a bit of a problem with come of the dross that now goes to university, and the courses they do. I am sure that many would be better served by some type of vocational training.

One could argue that the social concience of the Lib-dems, will have a very positive effect on this new Government's policies, that maybe would not have been there under a pure Conservative one.

I was just highlighting that i think it's a good thing more people are going to uni. It does help shape you as a person and give you a good shot and getting a decent living.

I agree with the Dross part to an extent. I'm at Derby uni and i know in the past it has had very low entry requirements (prob because people want to go to a higher rep uni and derby's is pretty low ). But a year before i switch to Crime & Justice i did a years training as a nurse and i met some of the thickest people i'd ever met. I don't mean this in a horrible way because they were nice people, but some of them weren't even up to GCSE level, had never written an essay and when it came to essay and exam time 50% of the class FAILED at the first hurdle. I mean it wasn't particualarly hard (i got 2 B's btw), i've already said i've got a learning difficulty and i've struggled in the past, but even I managed to overcome it. So i really think they shouldn't be letting in any old dross into uni for the sake of it. I want more people from lesser backgrounds in uni but i also want them to be prepared and that means it's up to the colleges/six form etc to prepare them, which you would say on that evidence they're not. Additionally, uni's (like derby) shouldn't really be letting people if they think they're out of there depth.

I REALLY hope the left influence of the lib dems is for the good of this country, but the jury is out on that one.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I think, Westdene, you said the businessmen paid my wages. You neglected to include the underclass who pay tax with their giro's.

You're clearly on a different planet and possibly deluded.

At least DerbyGull puts forward a non-nit picking arguement in defence of Labour and it's values rather than just deriding every succesful businessman.

You also seem to assume I'm a Tory - I'm not - I'm a floating voter who happened to choose the Tories this time round.

 

[pork pie]

And that is a fact of life. Do you think that doesn't happen in all walks off life. Even in football, a lot of the time its not what you know, its who you know.

Exactly. It has been going on for years in our own youth set-up.

 

[SeagullRic]

And that is a fact of life. Do you think that doesn't happen in all walks off life. Even in football, a lot of the time its not what you know, its who you know.

That doesn't make it right though, does it? Surely we should be aiming to diminish and indeed abolish the "old school tie" network, rather than just accepting it as a "fact of life".

 

[pork pie]

That doesn't make it right though, does it? Surely we should be aiming to diminish and indeed abolish the "old school tie" network, rather than just accepting it as a "fact of life".

Why? Work hard, earn loads of money, invest it in your kids a private education, and your heirs will be able to join in.

 

[Mr Burns]

Quite possibly envy does come into it, but I think what people are angry about is the system of inheritance.

What I've found in this election what most people are worried about, is not inheritance, but is those in life that survive on handouts and have no intention of working.

Remove them out of the system, most other poblems could well clear themselves up

 

[pork pie]

What I've found in this election what most people are worried about, is not inheritance, but is those in life that survive on handouts and have no intention of working.

Remove them out of the system, most other poblems could well clear themselves up

Yes, or rather block a lot of them's entry into our country. Lots and lts of concern about too much imigration.

 

[Mr Everyone]

You're clearly on a different planet and possibly deluded.

At least DerbyGull puts forward a non-nit picking arguement in defence of Labour and it's values rather than just deriding every succesful businessman.

You also seem to assume I'm a Tory - I'm not - I'm a floating voter who happened to choose the Tories this time round.

I'm not deriding every successful businessman, I'm explaining how they have become successful. You mentioned them as financing my salary. We ALL pay tax, from top-to-bottom. People who receive benefit, PAY tax.