Devolution Referendum

[The Spanish]

Depends on the rules in that country. Permanent Residence holders in South Africa, for example, are NOT currently allowed to vote in a South African general election. They were originally, but the rules were changed possibly because they did not vote for the correct party! They are still required to pay tax however.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with "foreign" residents in a country that pay tax having a vote. No taxation without representation and all that.

a phrase from a war that was essentially brit on brit from brits who didnt fancy paying their way as they were a long way away, 200 odd years ago, when virtually none of us on here would have had a vote either had we been our ancestors at the time. why this dropped in phrase carries any weight in an argument i dont know

 

[Nibble]

They may well be "ordinary people looking to better themselves" but then that will be in the Ugandan sense. In this context compared to the UK they will also be more likely to have Aids, hepatitus B and TB.

They will certainly better themselves by having access to the NHS given the desperate level of healthcare in Uganda.

Healthcare a major challenge for Uganda | Katine | guardian.co.uk

But then maybe that's because many of their Doctors are filled with the capitalist spirit thus leaving their own country folk to cough themselves into an early grave. Inspiring people.

Then again maybe the Doctor's there are not that qualified either, as this article confirms.

The Observer - How Uganda is losing battle against AIDs

Little wonder that Aids is out of control there when circumcision is seen as a prevention method:

"Circumcision remains one of the HIV prevention methods and we call forward the public to come and support it. I want to add that protection is in men and not women. Those who are circumcised and are HIV positive can still infect women," Dr Ondoa said.

Let's hope Dr Ondoa stays in Uganda, if this is advice on Aids prevention the locals may as well go and see a local goat herder.

Sound like morons to be fair

 

[The Spanish]

Conditions for the general populace of Uganda are not that comfortable. I imagine quite a few people would like to escape that to some dreamed-off Western Utopia.

Who do you think will have there wherewithall and resources to achieve it? The educated, or the goatherder? How many goats do you have to herd to afford a flight from Kampala to Heathrow, exactly?

knowing a good number of recently arrived africans including some who are actively involved in facilitating immigration into the UK, they would be hooting at the impression people here have that you pay for your flight before you leave. its all very sophisticated in a lot of cases, an industry that offers a lot of very high interest credit purely because people dont have the werewithal until they get here.

 

[KZNSeagull]

a phrase from a war that was essentially brit on brit from brits who didnt fancy paying their way as they were a long way away, 200 odd years ago, when virtually none of us on here would have had a vote either had we been our ancestors at the time. why this dropped in phrase carries any weight in an argument i dont know

That is true, but is it not a reasonable expectation in modern times (ie the right to have a say in how the taxes you have paid are spent)?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Common values ?? for fucks sake you clown , less than 20 years ago the hutus and tutsis were chopping each other into little lumps , with over half a million people killed , common values , fucks sake that takes the biscuit

Not so far from then the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland were bombing, shooting and kneecapping the shit out of each other. Not in so many numbers for sure but in significant numbers. White British citizens behaving impeccably there.

And thanks for totally misconstruing the point of my original post which was to illustrate the hypocrisy involved in seeing people from certain countries as British subjects when we want something from them but not years later when they live here and pay tax. At no point did I say I agreed. I merely pointed out that this is probably why the law exists as it does.

Still, thanks for having a small minded racist meltdown since. Saved me the trouble of posting for a while.

 

[KZNSeagull]

They may well be "ordinary people looking to better themselves" but then that will be in the Ugandan sense. In this context compared to the UK they will also be more likely to have Aids, hepatitus B and TB.

They will certainly better themselves by having access to the NHS given the desperate level of healthcare in Uganda.

Healthcare a major challenge for Uganda | Katine | guardian.co.uk

But then maybe that's because many of their Doctors are filled with the capitalist spirit thus leaving their own country folk to cough themselves into an early grave. Inspiring people.

Then again maybe the Doctor's there are not that qualified either, as this article confirms.

The Observer - How Uganda is losing battle against AIDs

Little wonder that Aids is out of control there when circumcision is seen as a prevention method:

"Circumcision remains one of the HIV prevention methods and we call forward the public to come and support it. I want to add that protection is in men and not women. Those who are circumcised and are HIV positive can still infect women," Dr Ondoa said.

Let's hope Dr Ondoa stays in Uganda, if this is advice on Aids prevention the locals may as well go and see a local goat herder.

It's not just in Uganda. Circumcision is also pushed here as a preventative measure. Just gives men another excuse not to use a condom. The level of ignorance, denial and recklessness (by our standards) is unbelievable. Official infection rate here is 20% - unofficially it is over 50%, particularly in rural areas. The only good thing is that the level of maternal to child infection has reduced dramatically to something like 2% from 11%. Still 2% too many, but getting better.

 

[BadFish]

I concur with you, what has what happened, hundreds of years ago with Britain gaining an overseas empire, got to do with the voting rights of individuals in the UK now.

Also for the wrongs of the British empire that some people point out, there were quite a few rights in my opinion. Such as a "British" rule of law (judge/jury independant of politicians), democracy (not taken up by all, I agree), building of infrastructure roads/rail/sewerage, education/schools/universities, medicine/innoculations against disease, a common language to name but a few things that I can think of.

IMHO it is not for us to say when people should get over it. It is the people in the countries that we colonised who can say when it is time to get over it.

The Aboriginals for example had an unbrken culture of something like 40,000 years without a great deal of change until British/Australian invsion. Who are we to now tell them to 'get over it' when 200 years later they are still effected by it in every way possible. We are not saying 'get over it' we are saying you must fit in with our culture and forget about what happened. After 40,000 years is this really possible?

You might be able to 'get over it' but I suggest the victims of our empire who have had their lives and culture irreversible changed are having a little more trouble.

Another example here of the arrogance of the English which goes along way to explaining why some people dislike us so much.

 

[BadFish]

So if you pay rent, you do not expect a say in the service that the landlord provides for you? "Please come and fix the burst pipe?" "No, piss off, I am going to buy a new Ferrari instead" Is that fair? I would imagine that if the landlord were a foreign national and it happened to you, we would hear all about it on here!!

You will never experience it because you live in a country that generally does not disenfranchise people who contribute financially to the running of the country. I also suspect, but am happy to be proved wrong, that you would never think about living in a foreign country. Unless, you think you are living in one now!

Any service that you pay for should give you rights. Anyone that is paying for a government provided service, should have the right to vote how that government is made up and, therefore, how that money is spent. A basic principal of democracy, one would have thought. Certainly part of the British sense of fair play.

The logic of this argument is there for all to see. If you pay taxes you should have a right in how it is spent.

 

[BadFish]

Why aren't illiterate goat herders allowed to vote, what has everyone got against goat herders? (I assume it is not the illiterate bit, as many illiterate chavs are able to vote)

 

[Guinness Boy]

Why aren't illiterate goat herders allowed to vote, what has everyone got against goat herders? (I assume it is not the illiterate bit, as many illiterate chavs are able to vote)

Ha! Let's not forget they're illiterate goat herders who speak too loudly in to their mobile phones, unlike your average 18 year old girl with a Croydon facelift and a nice Mackenzie tracksuit. They're normally the souls of discretion....

 

[BadFish]

Ha! Let's not forget they're illiterate goat herders who speak too loudly in to their mobile phones, unlike your average 18 year old girl with a Croydon facelift and a nice Mackenzie tracksuit. They're normally the souls of discretion....

You make a good point, but what i don't know is whether illiterate goat herders can use mobile phones or not. I am waiting with baited breath for the answer to that discussion.
[MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] can you spread some light on this one as our resident expert on Illiterate goat herders (or Ugandans as I believe they are also known as)

How is everybody else doing with Bushy Bingo? I just need "how about we meet for a quiet chat about it outside the Amex? and "nappy throwing" and I am there!

 

[RexCathedra]

There more 2nd/3rd generations of Scots in England than Scots in Scotland does this mean we can send them home and will we have to repair Hadrian's wall and introduce passport control! On the boarder crossings?

No. Free movement of goods and people within EU.

 

[User removed 4]

Not so far from then the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland were bombing, shooting and kneecapping the shit out of each other. Not in so many numbers for sure but in significant numbers. White British citizens behaving impeccably there.

And thanks for totally misconstruing the point of my original post which was to illustrate the hypocrisy involved in seeing people from certain countries as British subjects when we want something from them but not years later when they live here and pay tax. At no point did I say I agreed. I merely pointed out that this is probably why the law exists as it does.

Still, thanks for having a small minded racist meltdown since. Saved me the trouble of posting for a while.

You're trying to equate the situation in northern ireland with 12 year old children hacking limbs from members of rival tribes ?? you absolute joke
As for my so called hypocrisy in " seeing people from certain countries as British subjects when we want something from them but not years later when they live here and pay tax. " How long will it take to seep through to your head that they havent been british subjects for nearly 70 years in most cases ? Jesus wept when will clowns like you stop apologising for an empire thats not even within living memory for most of the population , and certainly wasnt the fault of my forebears , never mind , you can just carry on wallowing in your middle class colonial guilt.

 

[The Spanish]

That is true, but is it not a reasonable expectation in modern times (ie the right to have a say in how the taxes you have paid are spent)?

children get taxed on a daily basis perhaps we should give them the vote.

like i said at the top of this, the military service, taxation, age of consent arguments are emotive red herrings.

we seem to think our haphazard and skewed electoral system is the last word in sophistication. it really isnt. women didnt have the vote in (at a massive push) living memory. opening it up to impressionable 16 year olds is madness, encouraged by more idiots in their 40s and 50s as a vote winner to curry favour, while some people sit back and think its a victory for democracy. its a victory for stupidity.

 

[BadFish]

You're trying to equate the situation in northern ireland with 12 year old children hacking limbs from members of rival tribes ?? you absolute joke
As for my so called hypocrisy in " seeing people from certain countries as British subjects when we want something from them but not years later when they live here and pay tax. " How long will it take to seep through to your head that they havent been british subjects for nearly 70 years in most cases ? Jesus wept when will clowns like you stop apologising for an empire thats not even within living memory for most of the population , and certainly wasnt the fault of my forebears , never mind , you can just carry on wallowing in your middle class colonial guilt.

The fall out from the empire is still with us, and still effects many people around world. The biggest irony is that it is making you very very cross and you can't even accept it.

 

[The Spanish]

The fall out from the empire is still with us, and still effects many people around world. The biggest irony is that it is making you very very cross and you can't even accept it.

its alright if you can nick off to one of the better run former colonies though i suppose.

 

[BadFish]

children get taxed on a daily basis perhaps we should give them the vote.

like i said at the top of this, the military service, taxation, age of consent arguments are emotive red herrings.

we seem to think our haphazard and skewed electoral system is the last word in sophistication. it really isnt. women didnt have the vote in (at a massive push) living memory. opening it up to impressionable 16 year olds is madness, encouraged by more idiots in their 40s and 50s as a vote winner to curry favour, while some people sit back and think its a victory for democracy. its a victory for stupidity.

People should be given to the choice to EITHER vote on X factor/Big brother etc etc OR to VOTE in elections. That would certainly sort the wheat from the chaff. (Illiterate goat herders cannot vote in either).

 

[BadFish]

its alright if you can nick off to one of the better run former colonies though i suppose.

Yes no fall out from the empire here!

 

[The Spanish]

Yes no fall out from the empire here!

yeah if people from other parts of the world turn up on your island and turn it upside down only good things will come of it if you keep your mind open. ;-)

 

[User removed 4]

The fall out from the empire is still with us, and still effects many people around world. The biggest irony is that it is making you very very cross and you can't even accept it.

The fallout from empire is still with us is it ? Quite how this leads you to believe its perfectly natural for citizens of former colonies we left 70 odd years ago to be able to vote in general elections is puzzling me.