Why is STILL ok to attack certain communities? SERIOUS QUESTION!

[tezz79]

Only the purpose of this thread was to highlight the injustices the travelling community face rather than to stick a knife in them.

But what about the injustices of the people they wrong ?
They are by no means the helpless victims being suggested on this thread & the fact is they do not help themselves & 9 times out 10 they bring it on themselves

 

[BadFish]

I feel a bit sad about this other thread (apart from someone saying something really nice about me). I think that it showed that the racism and prejudice aimed at travellers is overt, open, normal and socially acceptable. Asking people not to speak their opinions does not make them go away, if they are out their then at least we are in a position to challenge them.

I posted some links on that thread last night which I think were valid. So here they are for anyone who wants to scratchh beneath the kneejerk reactions to the negative experiences of people and try to understand the problem from both sides.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/research/12inequalities_experienced_by_gypsy_and_traveller_communities_a_review.pdf the conclusion of this study discusses the lack of equality and opportunities afforded to travellers because of prejudice and racism. I believe that decades of unfair treatment has caused some of the travellers to behave antisocially. If you tread someone like a criminal or outcast they will act like an outcast. This to me is a more logical reason than that they are simply just scum.

http://www.historytoday.com/becky-taylor/britains-gypsy-travellers-people-outside This is a document about the history of travellers and their treatment in the UK.

I would also like to say that I am not denying that some travellers behave in extremely anti social ways......that is a given ......move on ........ and no i wouldn't want a bunch of anti social travellers (or anyone), living next door to me. In fact I do have someone fairly anti social living next door to me, but manage not to generalise about his race.

 

[BadFish]

But what about the injustices of the people they wrong ?
They are by no means the helpless victims being suggested on this thread & the fact is they do not help themselves & 9 times out 10 they bring it on themselves

You seem pretty open minded about this tezz.

Think about it from their point of view. They could say exactly the same thing to excuse their behaviour. No-one will give us a job, we can't get health care, the moan and call us names, they all f***ing hate us........lets rob them.

So both sides of the argument are blaming the other side for their unpleasant behaviour. Where is that going to get us? We have the weight of personal experience on our side and they have the weight of decades (if not centuries) of mistreatment and prejudice on theirs. The debate is never going to move on and a solution will not be found.

 

[DerbyGull]

But what about the injustices of the people they wrong ?
They are by no means the helpless victims being suggested on this thread & the fact is they do not help themselves & 9 times out 10 they bring it on themselves

This thread is about their legal status or apparent lack of, not random '9 times out of 10' figures plucked from nowhere. We're not talking about isolated individuals acts of violence but a collective communities struggle for equality.

 

[tezz79]

This thread is about their legal status or apparent lack of, not random '9 times out of 10' figures plucked from nowhere. We're not talking about isolated individuals acts of violence but a collective communities struggle for equality.

They do get heath care & education if they choose.
I also feel a lot of these incidents are in fact pretty widespread & not isolated & plucked from thin air as you claim

 

[Gully]

This thread is about their legal status or apparent lack of, not random '9 times out of 10' figures plucked from nowhere. We're not talking about isolated individuals acts of violence but a collective communities struggle for equality.

It is indeed, but some people seem to have their own reasons for being able to vilify a whole community based on their experiences with only one corner of it, to say that they are tarring them all with the same brush is a massive understatement. So, in their minds it is perfectly acceptable to attack a certain community, which sort of answers your question.

 

[Gully]

They do get heath care & education if they choose.

That is of course true, but it is difficult to access these services if you are constantly on the move and in theory of no fixed abode.

 

[DerbyGull]

They do get heath care & education if they choose.
I also feel a lot of these incidents are in fact pretty widespread & not isolated & plucked from thin air as you claim

Well to prove that it's widespread and not random isolated events you need to provide proof. Also if you can prove that, then you got to ask yourself why do they behave that way, is it because that they're persecuted from all sides and are merely 'reacting' to that persecution.

 

[DerbyGull]

It is indeed, but some people seem to have their own reasons for being able to vilify a whole community based on their experiences with only one corner of it, to say that they are tarring them all with the same brush is a massive understatement. So, in their minds it is perfectly acceptable to attack a certain community, which sort of answers your question.

Yea true.

 

[BadFish]

That is of course true, but it is difficult to access these services if you are constantly on the move and in theory of no fixed abode.

As highlighted generally throughout this report, all Gypsies and Travellers are likely
to experience far-reaching inequality, prejudice, discrimination and racism from
politicians, the media, the public, and from services that should be designed (in
partnership with communities) to meet their needs.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/research/12inequalities_experienced_by_gypsy_and_traveller_communities_a_review.pdf

 

[tezz79]

You seem pretty open minded about this tezz.

Think about it from their point of view. They could say exactly the same thing to excuse their behaviour. No-one will give us a job, we can't get health care, the moan and call us names, they all f***ing hate us........lets rob them.

So both sides of the argument are blaming the other side for their unpleasant behaviour. Where is that going to get us? We have the weight of personal experience on our side and they have the weight of decades (if not centuries) of mistreatment and prejudice on theirs. The debate is never going to move on and a solution will not be found.

I agree but surley they must see that robbing & mugging people is not going to go in their favour, from my experience the only hostility's that have occurred have happened after crimes or damage committed by the travellers.
On a personal note I'd have no problem if they set up site in a local park as long as they left it as they found it & respected the local people & property & I'm sure many others would feel the same.
We didn't mind them parking their caravans around the edge of our cricket/football field for a few day & even came to ab agreement that it was fine as long as they stayed off of the cricket wickets, a day later they were tearing about over them on quads & damaged 6 wickets then left their excrement in field.... Now that's not right is it ?
If they'd have kept their word they would have been welcomed back but now they've ruined it for themselves as is usually the case

 

[tezz79]

It is indeed, but some people seem to have their own reasons for being able to vilify a whole community based on their experiences with only one corner of it, to say that they are tarring them all with the same brush is a massive understatement. So, in their minds it is perfectly acceptable to attack a certain community, which sort of answers your question.

It's our own experiences along with what you hear go on all over the country so it's hardly just happening here is it mate let's face it

 

[Half Time Pies]

They do get heath care & education if they choose.
I also feel a lot of these incidents are in fact pretty widespread & not isolated & plucked from thin air as you claim

Don't be silly, the acts of violence, robbing of vulnerable people, wrecking of private property that I and others on this thread have experienced must all be isolated incidents. So must all the people that I know who have come in to contact with traveller's and had bad experiences and the police officers/ crime prevention officers I have spoken to. I guess we are all unlucky not to have met these lovely law abiding communities of people who are after all just struggling for equality....

 

[Sloe Joe]

Simples - the Dale Farm 'lot' broke the planning laws so they should repay Basildon Council the £18m spent to evict them - if they can't afford it, a good reason to put them in a pit, cover it up and withdraw from the EEC. As for the symathisers who chained themselves to railings, withdraw their benefits and put them on an AIDS island to let them die a slow and painful death as befits them because they are worthless and ignorant to anyone and have no basis to live.

 

[DerbyGull]

I agree but surley they must see that robbing & mugging people is not going to go in their favour, from my experience the only hostility's that have occurred have happened after crimes or damage committed by the travellers.
On a personal note I'd have no problem if they set up site in a local park as long as they left it as they found it & respected the local people & property & I'm sure many others would feel the same.
We didn't mind them parking their caravans around the edge of our cricket/football field for a few day & even came to ab agreement that it was fine as long as they stayed off of the cricket wickets, a day later they were tearing about over them on quads & damaged 6 wickets then left their excrement in field.... Now that's not right is it ?
If they'd have kept their word they would have been welcomed back but now they've ruined it for themselves as is usually the case

Yes Tezz those individuals deserve no sympathy when they go against an agreement like that.

 

[tezz79]

Don't be silly, the acts of violence, robbing of vulnerable people, wrecking of private property that I and others on this thread have experienced must all be isolated incidents. So must all the people that I know who have come in to contact with traveller's and had bad experiences and the police officers/ crime prevention officers I have spoken to. I guess we are all unlucky not to have met these lovely law abiding communities of people who are after all just struggling for equality....

Why are you telling me not to be silly ? You've just argued the same point I was making mate

 

[DerbyGull]

Simples - the Dale Farm 'lot' broke the planning laws so they should repay Basildon Council the £18m spent to evict them - if they can't afford it, a good reason to put them in a pit, cover it up and withdraw from the EEC. As for the symathisers who chained themselves to railings, withdraw their benefits and put them on an AIDS island to let them die a slow and painful death as befits them because they are worthless and ignorant to anyone and have no basis to live.

 

[BadFish]

I agree but surley they must see that robbing & mugging people is not going to go in their favour, from my experience the only hostility's that have occurred have happened after crimes or damage committed by the travellers.
On a personal note I'd have no problem if they set up site in a local park as long as they left it as they found it & respected the local people & property & I'm sure many others would feel the same.
We didn't mind them parking their caravans around the edge of our cricket/football field for a few day & even came to ab agreement that it was fine as long as they stayed off of the cricket wickets, a day later they were tearing about over them on quads & damaged 6 wickets then left their excrement in field.... Now that's not right is it ?
If they'd have kept their word they would have been welcomed back but now they've ruined it for themselves as is usually the case

I take your point. but without taking into account the weight of history experienced by travellers I don't think you can understand the experience you describe. I am not excusing the behaviour of the travellers you tried to treat with respect, but maybe not everyone in your community did, or maybe your respect was not enough to dissipate the bad feeling built up over the decades, the persecution they feel would I expect be ingrained through generations of hatred (much like the feelings of others about "f***ing pikeys").

As you have intimated earlier there is no quick fix, but just like the West Indians, Irish, etc etc it starts with people finding a little common ground and understanding of the things that are causing the problems experienced.

 

[Sloe Joe]

Oh, and those who empathise with those brain dead morons deserve gassing or likewise

 

[tezz79]

Yes Tezz those individuals deserve no sympathy when they go against an agreement like that.

It's just a bit of give & take really, if they respect people and local property I'm sure eventually people would respect them... It's the only way forward but i doubt it'll happen any time soon