Why is STILL ok to attack certain communities? SERIOUS QUESTION!

[Billy the Fish]

One major point I'd like to make. These threads, and the media in general, seem to be lumping travellers into one group, whether they are romany or Irish. I've never see or met a Romany Gypsy, or heard anyone speak ill of them. I guess they're the ones who clean up after themselves and don't cause a problem.

It's the Irish travellers who cause a problem. It obviously isn't all of them, but there are a visible number who live outside the law and have no interest in the rest of society. They don't want jobs, they don't want to mix - in fact their culture forbids it, they're only interested in what they can take.

Is it any wonder they get a bad name when so many people have bad experiences?

There's too much smoke for there not to be fire in this case, they are not just myths. On the other thread alone there were about 10 stories of people being a victim of some kind of traveller related crime. Why do you guys not see that as a valid reason to dislike them? You can't just trott out the old racism cliches every time - you are being told real experiences by real people.

If it was football fans none of you would bat an eyelid, if someone said they disliked Leeds fans because they were beaten up by Leeds fans back in the day I bet you could understand.

Travellers are the latest minority group that it's become fasionable to defend, for people who consider themselves to be liberal and progressive thinking. You are all blinded by your need to help the little man, and dress it up as an oppressed group vs the opressive state. It really isn't like that. If they went about their business without the mess, damage to property and criminal behaviour I bet nobody would bat an eyelid

 

[DerbyGull]

I feel a bit sad about this other thread (apart from someone saying something really nice about me). I think that it showed that the racism and prejudice aimed at travellers is overt, open, normal and socially acceptable. Asking people not to speak their opinions does not make them go away, if they are out their then at least we are in a position to challenge them.

I posted some links on that thread last night which I think were valid. So here they are for anyone who wants to scratchh beneath the kneejerk reactions to the negative experiences of people and try to understand the problem from both sides.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/research/12inequalities_experienced_by_gypsy_and_traveller_communities_a_review.pdf the conclusion of this study discusses the lack of equality and opportunities afforded to travellers because of prejudice and racism. I believe that decades of unfair treatment has caused some of the travellers to behave antisocially. If you tread someone like a criminal or outcast they will act like an outcast. This to me is a more logical reason than that they are simply just scum.

http://www.historytoday.com/becky-taylor/britains-gypsy-travellers-people-outside This is a document about the history of travellers and their treatment in the UK.

I would also like to say that I am not denying that some travellers behave in extremely anti social ways......that is a given ......move on ........ and no i wouldn't want a bunch of anti social travellers (or anyone), living next door to me. In fact I do have someone fairly anti social living next door to me, but manage not to generalise about his race.

That first review looks a really interesting read and i will sit down and have a read at some point.

 

[BadFish]

Oh, and those who empathise with those brain dead morons deserve gassing or likewise

Reported!

 

[Half Time Pies]

Why are you telling me not to be silly ? You've just argued the same point I was making mate

I AM on your side, the post was tongue in cheek.

 

[Billy the Fish]

That first review looks a really interesting read and i will sit down and have a read at some point.

Same as, on sunday if I'm not too bollocksed from Brum away tomorrow I'll have a read of it and tell them where they've gone wrong

 

[tezz79]

I take your point. but without taking into account the weight of history experienced by travellers I don't think you can understand the experience you describe. I am not excusing the behaviour of the travellers you tried to treat with respect, but maybe not everyone in your community did, or maybe your respect was not enough to dissipate the bad feeling built up over the decades, the persecution they feel would I expect be ingrained through generations of hatred (much like the feelings of others about "f***ing pikeys").

As you have intimated earlier there is no quick fix, but just like the West Indians, Irish, etc etc it starts with people finding a little common ground and understanding of the things that are causing the problems experienced.

Yeah but it's never going to end if they don't let go of this grudge, what more can we do than reason with them & give them permission to plot up for a while without trashing the place, & it wasn't just me it was was the whole football & cricket team that were tolerant to there presence before they started taking the piss.
There are some up the road from me now & nobody's giving them any stick but I guess we'll just have to see what happens (hopefully they're a decent bunch)

 

[DerbyGull]

Oh, and those who empathise with those brain dead morons deserve gassing or likewise

 

[BadFish]

Same as, on sunday if I'm not too bollocksed from Brum away tomorrow I'll have a read of it and tell them where they've gone wrong

Good Work Billy.

 

[tezz79]

I AM on your side, the post was tongue in cheek.

Ah right lol sorry fella

 

[oldalbiongirl]

Its not OK to attack any communities. The programme the other day made me so sad. There are good and bad in all of society and we should treat everyone the same way regardless of their background. Ive had experience of traveller families, both growing up whilst at school and now at work. I can honestly say that they have been lovely to deal with. I agree that we do have to try and all work within the law, but sometimes the law is an ass too and it doesnt always provide the right answers.

 

[DerbyGull]

Same as, on sunday if I'm not too bollocksed from Brum away tomorrow I'll have a read of it and tell them where they've gone wrong

.

 

[BadFish]

Yeah but it's never going to end if they don't let go of this grudge, what more can we do than reason with them & give them permission to plot up for a while without trashing the place, & it wasn't just me it was was the whole football & cricket team that were tolerant to there presence before they started taking the piss.
There are some up the road from me now & nobody's giving them any stick but I guess we'll just have to see what happens (hopefully they're a decent bunch)

True but it is also never going to end until the rest of society give them a fair go and we remove the prejudice and racism. It takes something from both sides. Maybe starting with finding them somewhere they can camp that they are happy with, rather than designating a site without discussion with them or local residents (as is happening in Newhaven by the sounds of it). If people are shown respect, they will act with respect. If they are marginalised and treated like second class citizen and criminals they will act that way. This has gone on for years and it will take years to reverse.

 

[Sloe Joe]

Oh, yah, let's defend the pikies, so what if they defy the law and leave litter behind everywhere at cost to us.
If it wasn't for the lentil munching Guardian and Independent twats life would be reasonable and people could eat meat and call pikies pikies without a conscience.
I do despite what my PC Government agency who support the pikies say.
Long live freedom of speech.

 

[BadFish]

Its not OK to attack any communities. The programme the other day made me so sad. There are good and bad in all of society and we should treat everyone the same way regardless of their background. Ive had experience of traveller families, both growing up whilst at school and now at work. I can honestly say that they have been lovely to deal with. I agree that we do have to try and all work within the law, but sometimes the law is an ass too and it doesnt always provide the right answers.

very true

 

[BadFish]

Oh, yah, let's defend the pikies, so what if they defy the law and leave litter behind everywhere at cost to us.
If it wasn't for the lentil munching Guardian and Independent twats life would be reasonable and people could eat meat and call pikies pikies without a conscience.
I do despite what my PC Government agency who support the pikies say.
Long live freedom of speech.

Not when it is so wastefully used.

Oh, and those who empathise with those brain dead morons deserve gassing or likewise

Simples - the Dale Farm 'lot' broke the planning laws so they should repay Basildon Council the £18m spent to evict them - if they can't afford it, a good reason to put them in a pit, cover it up and withdraw from the EEC. As for the symathisers who chained themselves to railings, withdraw their benefits and put them on an AIDS island to let them die a slow and painful death as befits them because they are worthless and ignorant to anyone and have no basis to live.

 

[zego]

Most of the information we get about Dale Farm has come from TV news, which mostly focuses in on the site, the travellers, and their supporters, whilst banging on about Green Field development, illegally, within the Green Belt area.

It is easy to begin to think of leafy green fields amongst rolling hills as being where these settlers have arrived. Think again - Google Maps, satellite view, shows a slightly different picture.

Try Google maps yourself, and view online - Dale Farm postcode is CM11 2YJ - this link opens the Google Maps satellite view.

Approx every second field around Dale Farm has been developed in one way or another. Just one field away to the south is the Southend Arterial Road, and the south side of that has a huge area of commercial/industrial development, and a big retail park

Basildon was designated a New Town in 1949, and it is no surprise that it has grown hugely since then. Billericay and Wickford have also expanded significantly in the post-war era.

These three views, at different scales, are centred on Dale Farm. The online views show more detail than these pics.

Dale Farm - Billericay-Wickford-Basildon triangle:-



Dale Farm - Crays Hill village:-



Dale Farm - neighbours, northern border: Oak Lane, western: Pippin Hill Rd North, eastern: Gardiners Lane North, and southern: A127, dual carriageway Southend Arterial Bypass.

On these borders are several not particularly green-field operations, such as the Tesco/Boots/Mothercare/ McDonalds shopping centre, and Summerhill Garden Centre, Essex Garden Buildings, Elms Nursery Garden Centre, identified by Google in the view below. Above views show many more nearby unidentified industrial sites



From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Farm - What is repeatedly referred to as Dale Farm was a scrap yard in the 1960s. The location is therefore better represented as being the Dale Re-cycling Centre.

This activity was not authorised, but on the other hand not closed down. Indeed local councils didn’t prevent waste from nearby road repairs being taken to Dale RC, and were surely aware that the material was then used to increase the area of hard-standing.

They have grumbled about all this, but not actually stopped anything, and have allowed part of the site to be developed, all this going back half a century.

Rewriting Anatole France - "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." (Le Lys Rouge) as:

“Even the rich, with their wealth, their connections, and the help of expensive solicitors, might not have succeeded in developing their fields with permission, as the Gypsies have failed with theirs.”

Information drawn from BBC News, Wikipedia, Guardian, Google - thanks and acknowledgments to all.

I couldn’t find any photos looking out of Dale Farm, giving the view the residents see of the so-called Green Belt.

 

[DerbyGull]

... but sometimes the law is an ass too and it doesnt always provide the right answers.

Indeed, as we saw with the dale farm case.

 

[DerbyGull]

Oh, yah, let's defend the pikies, so what if they defy the law and leave litter behind everywhere at cost to us.
If it wasn't for the lentil munching Guardian and Independent twats life would be reasonable and people could eat meat and call pikies pikies without a conscience.
I do despite what my PC Government agency who support the pikies say.
Long live freedom of speech.

 

[tezz79]

True but it is also never going to end until the rest of society give them a fair go and we remove the prejudice and racism. It takes something from both sides. Maybe starting with finding them somewhere they can camp that they are happy with, rather than designating a site without discussion with them or local residents (as is happening in Newhaven by the sounds of it). If people are shown respect, they will act with respect. If they are marginalised and treated like second class citizen and criminals they will act that way. This has gone on for years and it will take years to reverse.

Yeah good points I suppose & pretty good debate for a Friday night lol.
Right ..... I'm off to watch celebrity juice for something a bit more light hearted.
Try not to kill eachother NSCers

 

[BadFish]

Yeah good points I suppose & pretty good debate for a Friday night lol.
Right ..... I'm off to watch celebrity juice for something a bit more light hearted.
Try not to kill eachother NSCers

Nice one tezz, I guess I better go and mow the lawn............. got some travellers turning up later and i want to make the place nice for them