War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[El Presidente]

So for you Zionist means jew. Well done you have revealed your ignorance and bigotry in one sentence.

For once I agree with Looney, the one TRUE faith has Blue and White Stripes, and we will Fight, because of Boxing Day

 

[NMH]

..........It's called War of Terror. We live in harmony & safety in the UK.
Don't forget our troops are in Iraq & Afghanistan to preserve order, protect the majority to peace & to lay a foundation for a good life. We are not trying to convert these nations to Christianity. We are several thousand miles away, Israel is next door to some of these nations. Israel deserves our support. Just like what the US & UK are doing in the Middle East might not be pallatible, the alternative is unthinkable. Israel does not want to be in their land anymore than us in the Middle East. I cannot believe how you cannot see the bigger picture

So, we are several thousand miles away from there, yet support a 'country' created by zealots right there?
That IS the bigger picture - and most of the problems we encounter are directly as a result of our support of Israel!

And my avatar depicts a 'music nazi', nothing to do with your apparent cause.
Try convincing other people to take up for your glorious fictional country, with the irony that many Israelis would consider them lesser beings as well anyway. Israel is not there 'for freedom' like you'd love to have people believe - and a pretty good CLUE to that fact is underlined in the treatment of their neighbours - imprisoned behind walls and confined to a small patch of land.

 

[dougdeep]

Seems strange that this conflict dominates the headlines when we are losing British lives in Afghanistan.

 

[glasfryn]

After reading some of the extreme views on here I thought I would post this article from the times by Rabbi Michael Lerner which I think gives a more balanced view of the current conflict:

From The Times
January 5, 2009

Israel's attempt to wipe out Hamas is understandable, but stupid. No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day. If Mexico had a group of anti-imperialists bombing Texas, imagine how long it would take for America to mobilise a counterattack. Israel has every right to respond.

But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas's indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel's killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).

Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.

Hamas has made it clear that it would accept the terms of the Saudi Arabian peace agreement, though it would never formally recognise Israel. It would live peacefully in a two-state arrangement, but it would never acknowledge Israel's “right to exist”. This position is unnecessarily provocative, and is deeply self-destructive for Palestinians who believe it is the only symbolic weapon they have left.

How do we get out of this destructive spiral? The first step is for the world to demand an immediate ceasefire. That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:

— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.

— Israel stops all bombing, targeted assassinations or any other violent actions aimed at activists, militants, or suspected terrorists in the West Bank or Gaza, and uses the full force of its army to prevent any further attacks on Palestinians.

— Israel opens the border with Gaza and allows free access to and from Israel, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons. Israel allows free travel of food, gas, electricity, water and consumer goods and materials including from land, air, and sea, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons or materials typically used for weapons.

— Israel releases all Palestinians in detention and returns them to the West Bank or Gaza according to the choice of the detainees or prisoners. Hamas releases Gilad Schalit and anyone else being held by Palestinian forces.

— Both sides invite an international force to implement these agreements

— Both sides agree to end teaching and/or advocacy of violence against the other side in and outside mosques, educational institutions, and the media.

— This ceasefire would last for 20 years. Nato, the UN, and the US all agree to enforce this agreement and impose severe sanctions in the event of any violations.

These steps would make a huge difference, isolate the most radical members of each side from the mainstream, and make it possible to then begin negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on a broader and deeper set of issues.

The basic condition for creating peace is to help each side feel “safe”. A first and critical step is to speak in a language that is empathic toward the suffering of each people in a climate of discourse in which both sides' stories are heard and understood.

Yet Israel, as the militarily superior power, ought to take the first steps: implementing a massive Marshall Plan in Gaza and in the West Bank to end poverty and unemployment, rebuild infrastructure and encourage investment; dismantle the settlements or make settlers become citizens of a Palestinian state; accept 30,000 Palestinian refugees annually back into Israel for the next 30 years, apologise for its role in the 1948 expulsions and offer to co-ordinate a worldwide compensation effort for all that Palestinians lost during the Occupation; and recognise a Palestinian state within borders already defined by the Geneva Accord of 2003.

This is the only way Israel will ever achieve security. It is the only way to permanently defeat Hamas and all extremists who wish to see endless war against Israel.

The most significant contribution the new Obama administration could make to Middle East peace would be to embrace a strategy that homeland security is best achieved not by military or economic domination but by generosity and caring for others. If this new way of thinking could become a serious part of US policy, it would have an immense impact on undermining the fearful consciousness of Israelis who still see the world more through the frame of the Holocaust and previous persecutions than through the frame of their actual present power in the world.

It breaks my heart to see the terrible suffering in Gaza and in Israel. As a religious Jew I find it all the worse, because it confirms to me how easy it is to pervert the loving message of Judaism into a message of hatred and domination. I remain in mourning for the Jewish people, for Israel and for the world.

Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun magazine.

the most sensible thing written about this bloody conflict.............but would anything like this be implemented

 

[Steve Foster]

So, we are several thousand miles away from there, yet support a 'country' created by zealots right there?
That IS the bigger picture - and most of the problems we encounter are directly as a result of our support of Israel!

And my avatar depicts a 'music nazi', nothing to do with your apparent cause.
Try convincing other people to take up for your glorious fictional country, with the irony that many Israelis would consider them lesser beings as well anyway. Israel is not there 'for freedom' like you'd love to have people believe - and a pretty good CLUE to that fact is underlined in the treatment of their neighbours - imprisoned behind walls and confined to a small patch of land.

Israel is NOT a fictional country. You donut.
Israel is the ONLY democratic country in the Middle East. You donut.
Their neighbours are not imprisoned behind walls either. You clearly have not been to the region - or in fact anywhere further than Churchill Square.

Israel, UK & USA are the three most peaceful, law abiding and enforcer of peace in the world. I for one would be proud to stand up for all three nations, yet have no ties with Israel or the USA but for what they stand for.

Thank God we have these nations

 

[looney]

I would say the most peacefull country is Bhutan.

Mono-racial, mono cultural monarchy. Very little to argue or fight about and not worth invading.

 

[Steve Foster]

I would say the most peacefull country is Bhutan.

Mono-racial, mono cultural monarchy. Very little to argue or fight about and not worth invading.

Wouldn't diagree with you. Finland must be the most peaceful nation in Europe. Never started a war or been involved in one within living memory. In fact you can walk right up to their parliament front steps without any problems.

However, like I suspect Bhutan probably a little insular and do not enforce peace elsewhere in the world amongst war like nations.

Israel, UK & USA rae enforcer's.............thank god

 

[looney]

Wouldn't diagree with you. Finland must be the most peaceful nation in Europe. Never started a war or been involved in one within living memory. In fact you can walk right up to their parliament front steps without any problems.

However, like I suspect Bhutan probably a little insular and do not enforce peace elsewhere in the world amongst war like nations.

Israel, UK & USA rae enforcer's.............thank god

Thats not going to last.....

"The number of Muslims in Finland has increased from around 1 000 in 1990 to something in the region of 15 - 20 000 in 1999"

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Israel is NOT a fictional country. You donut.
Israel is the ONLY democratic country in the Middle East. You donut.
Their neighbours are not imprisoned behind walls either. You clearly have not been to the region - or in fact anywhere further than Churchill Square.

Israel, UK & USA are the three most peaceful, law abiding and enforcer of peace in the world. I for one would be proud to stand up for all three nations, yet have no ties with Israel or the USA but for what they stand for.

Thank God we have these nations

Israel may not be fictional but the book it has been created on is.

The people of Gaza ARE imprisioned - Israel is not allowing them to leave hence they are imprisioned.

The UK and USA invaded Iraq illegally and therefore can not be classed as peaceful. You only need look at the TV reports to see how peaceful it is - full of phsyco murders who are arrogant in the extreme.

AND you can not ENFORCE peace - you donut !!!!!

 

[Raphael Meade]

Israel, UK & USA are the three most peaceful, law abiding and enforcer of peace in the world. I for one would be proud to stand up for all three nations, yet have no ties with Israel or the USA but for what they stand for.

Thank God we have these nations

is that a joke?!! i mean, i know everything you write is complete f***ing bullshit, but seriously?!

how many people, civillians and otherwise, do you think those 3 countries combined have killed during 'war' in the last 12 months??

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Israel may not be fictional but the book it has been created on is.

The people of Gaza ARE imprisioned - Israel is not allowing them to leave hence they are imprisioned.

The UK and USA invaded Iraq illegally and therefore can not be classed as peaceful. You only need look at the TV reports to see how peaceful Israel is - full of phsyco murders who are arrogant in the extreme.

AND you can not ENFORCE peace - you donut !!!!!

And it should have read as above.

 

[Steve Foster]

Israel at War - Day 15

Dear HonestReporting Subscriber,



TARGETING THE UN AND HUMANITARIAN AID?

Unlike the rest of the international media, The Jerusalem Post reports that the IDF has denied firing on a UN aid truck on Thursday, in an incident that made international headlines:

On Friday, the Post reported that contrary to foreign press reports, it was not certain that an IDF tank shell hit the aid truck, and that in all probability, the aid workers were hit by Hamas gunfire.

The foreign press reports were based on UN sources, who later admitted to the Post that they were not sure in which direction the truck was headed when it was hit, and could also not say with certainty that tank shells were responsible.

Foreign press reports said the dead Palestinian and two others were hit by tank shells. A MDA medic at the scene told the Post that soldiers in the field said Hamas snipers targeted the aid workers. A Post probe revealed that the two wounded Palestinians were being treated at Barzilai for gunshot wounds.

VIDEO: HAMAS USE OF CIVILIANS AS HUMAN SHIELDS

View this short film presenting visual evidence of the long-standing Hamas tactic of exploiting civilians as human shields and civilian buildings as cover for terrorist attacks.





CIVILIANS OR TERRORISTS?

Media outlets, while distinguishing between Israeli civilian and military casualties have failed to do the same on the Palestinian side. All Palestinian casualties are somehow lumped together irrespective of whether they are civilians or Hamas operatives.

Jerusalem Post editor David Horovitz notes: "Hamas gunmen, even more cynical than their Hizbullah counterparts, are fighting out of uniform - they look like innocent civilians, deserving of protection, until they pull out guns or rush at IDF soldiers with suicide-bomber belts."

VIDEOS: HAMAS ABUSING HUMANITARIAN AID AND THE CEASEFIRE

Click on the images below to see a Fox News report showing humanitarian aid trucks containing military uniforms destined for Hamas stopped at the Gaza border by the IDF. The second video from the IDF shows Hamas firing rockets from a schoolyard during a three-hour humanitarian pause.

On Sunday, Hamas again fired rockets during the three-hour humanitarian pause hitting a wall surrounding a kindergarten in Ashdod.














RECOMMENDED READING

The criminal cynicism of Hamas, Alan Dershowitz, Comment is Free

The Jews Face a Double Standard, Marvin Hier, Wall St. Journal

On Proportionality, Michael Walzer, The New Republic

SEND A SOLDIER A SMILE: A PERSONAL THANK YOU

Cookies and thousands of your messages of support were delivered on Friday in time for the Jewish Shabbat to the IDF's frontline troops near Gaza courtesy of HonestReporting and Gili's Goodies. View a personal thank you from Armored Division Deputy Commander Colonel Bentzi Gruber by clicking on the image below.



Remember to head to Backspin, where our chief blogger Pesach Benson is live blogging media coverage of the Gaza war and finding the best and worst examples out there.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Unlike the rest of the international media, The Jerusalem Post reports that the IDF has denied firing on a UN aid truck on Thursday, in an incident that made international headlines:

And the Jerusalem post isn't likely to be the mouthpiece of Israel at all is it

Get your head out your arse and accept that your fellow country men ( and I can only assume that the way you blindly follow them that you're Israeli or Jewish ) are MURDERING hundreds of innocents. Quite frankly they are no better than the Nazis and anyone supporting them is the equivilent of a Nazi sympathiser at best.

 

[Alfred the greatx]

Wouldn't diagree with you. Finland must be the most peaceful nation in Europe. Never started a war or been involved in one within living memory. In fact you can walk right up to their parliament front steps without any problems.

However, like I suspect Bhutan probably a little insular and do not enforce peace elsewhere in the world amongst war like nations.

Israel, UK & USA rae enforcer's.............thank god

So you don't consider WW2 to be in living memory? you fool.

The UK and US, and many others, do enforce international law at the request of the UN security council and long may we do so. I think you are totaly out of order to compare the legal peacekeeping and anti terrorist activities we undertake to your faultless paradise and its illegal land grabbing. In the middle east sir, you are the bloody terrorists.

 

[looney]

What are you pair of f***ing idiots on? Israel is leafletting civilians to leave areas, its trying to avoid civilian casualties, wereas Hamas will just target anyone they consider a Jew.


Isn't it your bed time yet?

 

[Steve Foster]

What are you pair of f***ing idiots on? Israel is leafletting civilians to leave areas, its trying to avoid civilian casualties, wereas Hamas will just target anyone they consider a Jew.


Isn't it your bed time yet?

 

[Steve Foster]

How would you feel if your neighbours i.e Palace fans were putting this stuff out about Brighton fans?

What sort of society do the militant Hamas want for their people?

How, on earth are Alfred the Great & Westdean Seagull so THICK?

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Hamas In Their Own Voices

YouTube - Background: Gaza and Cast Lead 6 Jan. 2009

 

[NMH]

Israel is NOT a fictional country. You donut.
Israel is the ONLY democratic country in the Middle East. You donut.
Their neighbours are not imprisoned behind walls either. You clearly have not been to the region - or in fact anywhere further than Churchill Square.

Israel, UK & USA are the three most peaceful, law abiding and enforcer of peace in the world. I for one would be proud to stand up for all three nations, yet have no ties with Israel or the USA but for what they stand for.

Thank God we have these nations

Israel is a country made up by and for the benefit of a bunch of zealots, who decided it would be convenient to rally other of a religion to one place. At that time, Israel didn't exist - in some minds it still doesn't or at least shouldn't. The way the inhabitants are acting, I believe you WILL find more and more people moving toward the "shouldn't" side of the argument.

I have lived in a few (real) countries now, sunshine. I have lived in the same house with several other nationalities including Iranian, Brazillian, French, Serbianan and also an Israeli flatmate (the least reasonable person you could wish to know, incidentally, but I have other Israeli friends who are otherwise).
I have even performed the function that a Rabbi might normally be expected to do, by ministering in a marriage between two Jewish friends (no, that's not some kiddie thing we made up. I got sworn in in Santa Barbara City Hall in California, for the occasion).

Have you and looney spotted yet, a general lack of sympathy and empathy with the actions of Israel currently? Are you seeing that country you glom onto through abstraction of ancient historic scrolls, losing a lot of regard because of their actions? That, even from some high-profile Jews in our community?

Lose the myopia and get some wider perspective will you?, your lack of compassion just gives reason to all past hatred against 'your people' - whatever that crap means.

I notice, by the way, that much of the usual anti-Israeli world (inc Iran) are comparatively quiet about events - it seems Israeli actions are doing more to get anti-Israeli sentiment than they could ever have hoped for!
That is indefensible isn't it Steve Foster, YOU donut?

 

[NMH]

How would you feel if your neighbours i.e Palace fans were putting this stuff out about Brighton fans?

What sort of society do the militant Hamas want for their people?

How, on earth are Alfred the Great & Westdean Seagull so THICK?

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Hamas In Their Own Voices

YouTube - Background: Gaza and Cast Lead 6 Jan. 2009

As I'm intimating for you, thicko, those kinds of cries from extremists would not have any credibility, if it weren't for Israel's outrageous reaction to them.

 

[Steve Foster]

I Quote from Peter Hitchens - The Mail On sUnday 11/01/09

' I'm against what Israel is doing in Gaza'.

.....'The State of Israel exists because the 'civilised' world including some influential Arabs refused to rescue Europe's Jews from Hitler when they could. The great powers were rightly guilty when they found out afterwards what they had allowed.

A (slightly) closer parallel, with what's going on in Gaza, look up what happened in the Syrian city of Hama in February 1982. The Muslim Brotherhood, in many ways similar to Hamas, had violently challenged the rule of Syrian President Hafez Assad. Hama, with 350,000 inhabitants, was identified by Assad as the HQ of the Brotherhood.

After warning that anyone who remained in Hama would be considered a rebel, the Syrian army bombed and shelled the city for 3 weeks. Death & torture squads were then unleashed. Estimates of the numbers killed range from 7,000 to 40,000.

By comparison with this, Israel's attack on Gaza looks positively effeminate.

But fashionable showbiz folk haver never heard of Hama.

Is it all right for Arabs to kill Arabs - and only bad when Israel does it?

Not my words, but The Mail On Sunday's
(furthermore, the Israeli's leaflet Gaza where they will strike. Hamas just fires weapons to Israel indiscriminantly)