Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[cunning fergus]

In your mind does EU resignation equate to resigning from the second most powerful economic block in the world, or is this something that would be somehow negotiated separately ? This kind of sounds where Cameron would like to be. If you don't see any value in this I think you must be an ideologist.

I don’t think either, I think (like most people in the UK) the single market is fine but not the full on EU political integration and federalism of the EU.

The problem is that the trajectory that the EU has taken over recent years means that this option is no longer available; it’s no longer available because all the political institutions that the EU need to act as a de facto state were created by the Lisbon Treaty. The economic crisis in the eurozone has provided the EU’s political classes with the perfect opportunity to use these institutions to govern the eurozone, and by default that means the eurozone will govern the non eurozone countries in the EU. So, if we don’t join the euro we will end up being governed by the eurozone. That means we will end up facing a single option - all in or all out.

I dont care for ideology, but if the choice is being poor and free over hope and autocracy I will look forward to being a happy penniliess Englishman.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I don’t think either, I think (like most people in the UK) the single market is fine but not the full on EU political integration and federalism of the EU.

The problem is that the trajectory that the EU has taken over recent years means that this option is no longer available; it’s no longer available because all the political institutions that the EU need to act as a de facto state were created by the Lisbon Treaty. The economic crisis in the eurozone has provided the EU’s political classes with the perfect opportunity to use these institutions to govern the eurozone, and by default that means the eurozone will govern the non eurozone countries in the EU. So, if we don’t join the euro we will end up being governed by the eurozone. That means we will end up facing a single option - all in or all out.

I dont care for ideology, but if the choice is being poor and free over hope and autocracy I will look forward to being a happy penniliess Englishman.

Fair enough.

 

[jackanada]

eh eh no flies on you eh. i love it when stating the obvious is dressed up as insight, its like telling people the magician doesnt really saw the girl in half and tapping your nose.

Not claiming that as insight, though its still a statement many seem to disagree with. My mental image of the man slyly taping his nose as he debunks the magician is oddly disturbing. thanks for that!

 

[HovaGirl]

That's an interesting take on world history. Europe has never as an entity waged war on our country.

I think you'll find that the countries of Europe (including us) actually waged war on each other and we formed various alliances with them.

I didn't say that Europe "as an entity" waged war on us, but individual nations have.

Several nations have invaded us or been at war with us: Italy (aka Rome); Denmark (aka the Jutes); Germany (aka the Saxons); Germany (aka the Angles); Norway/Sweden (aka the Vikings); France (aka the Normans); France (Hundred Years' War); Spain (aka the Armada); Holland (aka William of Orange, though this was bloodless, friendly and he was invited); Germany (aka Hitler).

 

[HovaGirl]

It's not about who we are friends with, it's about who we (historically) trade and fight wars with.

The EFTA exists so we can trade freely with our Geographically nearest neighbours.

The EU exists so we don't ever again have to declare war on our Geographically nearest neighbours.

We are never going to declare war on either the US or a member of the Commonwealth.........

( I'm beginning to think that those who are desperate for us to exit the EU are the same people who wish WW I and WW II had never ended ).

I don't know how you managed that crafty conflation.

We have historically fought wars and traded with America, India, and many other countries which were neither part of our Empire not close to us. Britain has managed to trade with almost everybody at some time or another, thanks to the industrial north being the workshop of the world after the Industrial Revolution. We founded EFTA after De Gaulle refused us entry into the EEC, the forerunner of today's European Union. We, and any other European drop-outs could rejoin or join EFTA. The EU exists so that our nearest Geographical neighbours don't declare war on us, and they don't have to, because they have managed to invade us politically and economically. Mrs Merkel even dropped veiled threats, recently, that if the UK left the EU, military peace could not be absolutely guaranteed.

 

[HovaGirl]

I don't get this open debate thing ?

There has been open debate about this for the last 50 years in and around Westminster, since we fist applied to join the EEC in the early sixties. If you haven't been involved in the last 50 years of open debate then that is down to you.
There is still huge disagreement over all kinds of aspects of our relationship with Europe but the vast majority of people who have been involved in these debates know that leaving Europe would be economic suicide.

That is why all the major political parties are in agreement and none would willingly endorse an In/Out referendum. (And why the current Government are trying to avoid one).

But don't let that get in the way of a good NSC binfest.

But where in this "open debate" did the great populations have a choice as to what was happening to their countries? When were we all asked if we would like to be part of a federal European superstate ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? They are a dictatorship just waiting in the wings.

 

[HovaGirl]

Really, what about all those ex-pats who live on the Spanish Costas, or the South of France, or Greece............

Plenty of UK Citizens now live and work on Mainland Europe, but from the perspective we get from our blinkered press, we never get to hear about them.

We had mass immigration from the Commonwealth and former Colonies long before we were members of the EU. Is it because a Black West Indian or a Pakistani Asian is more acceptable than a Romanian or a Pole? We had a longstanding obligation from their association with the Armed Forces to allow Gurkhas from Nepal to be awarded Pensions and settle here, but it took a Campaign from a celebrity, and a ruling by the EU Courts to make it happen, and it was the Westminster Government who were trying to oppose it.

I'm sceptical about any Government, be it Westminster or Brussels, and trust Politicians no further than I can spit - but there needs to be a channel of communication with our nearest geographical neighbours and the EU is the one we currently have.

If there hadn't been such an open-door policy, far fewer Britons would have taken their billions of pounds out of the UK to buy their properties in those, and other, countries. They'd be doing their shopping and paying their VAT, Community Charge and other taxes here. And we do hear about them. Many have found those same properties are either worthless for various reasons, or that their value has dropped by half, or more, or that they can't be sold. Some impoverished ex-pats are returning to this country because they can't afford to run their homes in the sun, yet find it very difficult to get the State to feed and house them.

This country's history is one of mass immigration over the centuries. Most of the immigrants integrated into society and became so British, you wouldn't know the difference. Dear Michael Winner, the son of a Polish mother and a Russian father. The fabulous Helen Mirren, nee Mironoff, the daughter of a Russian immigrant. The Millibands, sons of Polish parents. Dear Cleggy, the son of a Dutch woman and a man with East European ancestors. Mrs Morse, Sheila Hancock, whose father was the son of an Italian immigrant.

During World War II, we had mass immigration of Poles, including my father. He even wrote to my mother, in 1960, that London was so full of Polish people, she should not be surprised to see Polish street signs in the future.

The problem with the past decade of mass immigration, is that there was no real reason for it, except to try to boost the numbers of Labour voters among them. Labour admitted to this. Previous waves of mass immigration were for economic or political reasons, to keep these people alive. In their gratitude that they had been given a chance, they integrated into British society and contributed to it. This was not the case during the past decade, which is a mix-and-match case of youngsters coming for jobs, to send their earnings out of the country to their homelands, where it has more value. Millions have been lost to the UK in this way. This reduced the numbers of traditional starter jobs for our young, often because they have such high expectations, they wouldn't get out of bed for the minimum wage, let alone below it. They're not working so they're not paying tax, but often receiving some money from the State anyway. Yet others have come from their slum homelands in the East and the Far East, jobless, stateless, with no papers, and no right to be here, hiding themselves in Greek lorries en route to Italy and Sangatte, before they turn up here and end up living in the same sort of squalour they left behind. Some of their passports have been taken, and they are hidden away in slave sheds at the bottom of their abusers' gardens without funds to go home, and too fearful to give themselves up. They've heard much about the benefits system, not realising, that without papers, they could never be part of that. But others had, and Blair and Brown's Britain welcomed them with open arms full of taxpayers' money and housing. Their children are now educated by the State, the parents having paid comparatively little in the way of tax or NI. And they are all treated by the NHS. It has all lost us billions from our economy and is one of the main reasons this country is broke.

 

[HovaGirl]

UKIP remains the only option for the referendum. Tories trying to steal UKIP vote!

Even if that was the case, then would you trust UKIP with the economy, education, health?

 

[HovaGirl]

And besides, this is utterly and totally the wrong time to do this. We are in the middle of the worst recession in many generations, and he heaps yet more uncertaintly on the UK. What will any potential UK investors think now? f***ing crazy and I seriously worry for ANYONE who thinks that Cameron and Osborne's are doing any good. They are royally screwing up the UK big time.

No, Labour did that. Cameron's just trying to untangle an unholy mess. He didn't create this mess. His speech has been well-received, even by Mrs Merkel, surprisingly. I don't think it heaps uncertainty, but quite the opposite. He's telling the world that Britain is quite strong enough and confident enough to go it alone, if we have to. It's the end of 20 years of faffing about.

 

[The Spanish]

If there hadn't been such an open-door policy, far fewer Britons would have taken their billions of pounds out of the UK to buy their properties in those, and other, countries. They'd be doing their shopping and paying their VAT, Community Charge and other taxes here. And we do hear about them. Many have found those same properties are either worthless for various reasons, or that their value has dropped by half, or more, or that they can't be sold. Some impoverished ex-pats are returning to this country because they can't afford to run their homes in the sun, yet find it very difficult to get the State to feed and house them.

This country's history is one of mass immigration over the centuries. Most of the immigrants integrated into society and became so British, you wouldn't know the difference. Dear Michael Winner, the son of a Polish mother and a Russian father. The fabulous Helen Mirren, nee Mironoff, the daughter of a Russian immigrant. The Millibands, sons of Polish parents. Dear Cleggy, the son of a Dutch woman and a man with East European ancestors. Mrs Morse, Sheila Hancock, whose father was the son of an Italian immigrant.

During World War II, we had mass immigration of Poles, including my father. He even wrote to my mother, in 1960, that London was so full of Polish people, she should not be surprised to see Polish street signs in the future.

The problem with the past decade of mass immigration, is that there was no real reason for it, except to try to boost the numbers of Labour voters among them. Labour admitted to this. Previous waves of mass immigration were for economic or political reasons, to keep these people alive. In their gratitude that they had been given a chance, they integrated into British society and contributed to it. This was not the case during the past decade, which is a mix-and-match case of youngsters coming for jobs, to send their earnings out of the country to their homelands, where it has more value. Millions have been lost to the UK in this way. This reduced the numbers of traditional starter jobs for our young, often because they have such high expectations, they wouldn't get out of bed for the minimum wage, let alone below it. They're not working so they're not paying tax, but often receiving some money from the State anyway. Yet others have come from their slum homelands in the East and the Far East, jobless, stateless, with no papers, and no right to be here, hiding themselves in Greek lorries en route to Italy and Sangatte, before they turn up here and end up living in the same sort of squalour they left behind. Some of their passports have been taken, and they are hidden away in slave sheds at the bottom of their abusers' gardens without funds to go home, and too fearful to give themselves up. They've heard much about the benefits system, not realising, that without papers, they could never be part of that. But others had, and Blair and Brown's Britain welcomed them with open arms full of taxpayers' money and housing. Their children are now educated by the State, the parents having paid comparatively little in the way of tax or NI. And they are all treated by the NHS. It has all lost us billions from our economy and is one of the main reasons this country is broke.

excellent post

 

[HovaGirl]

There are plenty of reports and papers which suggest more stringent employment laws lead to a better economy. Workers who are confident about their employment spend more. Workers who feel they could get the chop tomorrow dont. And besides, surely the onus is on the empoyer to make the right choice? Successful companies will do this. And if you do employ someone who is useless it is not too difficult to get shot of them. Do you really seriously propose an employment model where employers continually hire, train and fire?

No, of course not. But wherever you go, there are idiots who can't do their jobs properly. Someone I know worked with a manager who was actually losing the company money with their bad practices. Company was lumbered. I've managed people who really should not be in their jobs, but you keep on giving them a go, or hope they'll achieve something positive by training them for an NVQ, but you're wasting your time half the time. The problem is, a lot of these types are all talk, and talk themselves into management positions, but they can't manage, pass the buck, and the underlings get the blame. That's really where the problems lie.

 

[HovaGirl]

So as Europeans (You cannot change geography) shouldnt we all have the same living standards? I assume you have never actually been to Romania or Bulgaria both former easter block countries both now a free democracy the Romanian economy was transformed into one of relative macroeconomic stability, characterised by high growth, low unemployment and declining inflation. In 2006, according to the Romanian Statistics Office, GDP growth in real terms was recorded at 7.7%, one of the highest rates in Europe. Bulgaria has one of the highest levels of infrastructer dont forget the Romanian/Bulgarian oil fields.

So much for your shed dwelling parasites rubbing there hands in glee and all the unhaggling UK peoples they are here to fleece. IF we can put aside nationality and all work towards making the whole of Europe a good place to live we can do that but not all the time Daily mail readers have the blinkers on

I have been to both Bulgaria and Romania and seen some of the housing. Nay, bought some of the housing and looked at many slums before I made the mistake of buying a house. In the dying villages, the schools and factories are empty and crumbling, the housing stock is crumbling and as the old people die off, so the youngsters (who have moved to the cities or abroad to Greece, England, Germany and elsewhere) want to sell the houses to get some cash. Few houses have inside toilets. They have a hole in the ground with a little shed over it. From time to time, they dig a new hole and move the shed. I've seen it often. England is so crowded, but Bulgaria and Romania (both of which are full of stateless and homeless Roma gypsies) have so much open land, it's unbelievable. It used to be farmed, but not any more. It's just going to waste. Europe should plough billions into those countries, to repair the roads and railways and build new ones, rebuild the villages, schools and factories and give their people work. Then they might stay where they are and help to rebuild their own country. But of course, the other side of that coin is that European taxpayers will scream about how their taxes should be spent on their own people.

It is an idealistic dream that everyone should have the same living standards, but some countries are just so far behind (Bulgaria is particularly medieval) that they will never catch up. It's tragic.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If there hadn't been such an open-door policy, far fewer Britons would have taken their billions of pounds out of the UK to buy their properties in those, and other, countries. They'd be doing their shopping and paying their VAT, Community Charge and other taxes here. And we do hear about them. Many have found those same properties are either worthless for various reasons, or that their value has dropped by half, or more, or that they can't be sold. Some impoverished ex-pats are returning to this country because they can't afford to run their homes in the sun, yet find it very difficult to get the State to feed and house them.

This country's history is one of mass immigration over the centuries. Most of the immigrants integrated into society and became so British, you wouldn't know the difference. Dear Michael Winner, the son of a Polish mother and a Russian father. The fabulous Helen Mirren, nee Mironoff, the daughter of a Russian immigrant. The Millibands, sons of Polish parents. Dear Cleggy, the son of a Dutch woman and a man with East European ancestors. Mrs Morse, Sheila Hancock, whose father was the son of an Italian immigrant.

During World War II, we had mass immigration of Poles, including my father. He even wrote to my mother, in 1960, that London was so full of Polish people, she should not be surprised to see Polish street signs in the future.

The problem with the past decade of mass immigration, is that there was no real reason for it, except to try to boost the numbers of Labour voters among them. Labour admitted to this. Previous waves of mass immigration were for economic or political reasons, to keep these people alive. In their gratitude that they had been given a chance, they integrated into British society and contributed to it. This was not the case during the past decade, which is a mix-and-match case of youngsters coming for jobs, to send their earnings out of the country to their homelands, where it has more value. Millions have been lost to the UK in this way. This reduced the numbers of traditional starter jobs for our young, often because they have such high expectations, they wouldn't get out of bed for the minimum wage, let alone below it. They're not working so they're not paying tax, but often receiving some money from the State anyway. Yet others have come from their slum homelands in the East and the Far East, jobless, stateless, with no papers, and no right to be here, hiding themselves in Greek lorries en route to Italy and Sangatte, before they turn up here and end up living in the same sort of squalour they left behind. Some of their passports have been taken, and they are hidden away in slave sheds at the bottom of their abusers' gardens without funds to go home, and too fearful to give themselves up. They've heard much about the benefits system, not realising, that without papers, they could never be part of that. But others had, and Blair and Brown's Britain welcomed them with open arms full of taxpayers' money and housing. Their children are now educated by the State, the parents having paid comparatively little in the way of tax or NI. And they are all treated by the NHS. It has all lost us billions from our economy and is one of the main reasons this country is broke.

Completely agree.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It is an idealistic dream that everyone should have the same living standards, but some countries are just so far behind that they will never catch up. It's tragic.

It looks like we agree on something. This is of course true but slightly defeatist; I don't think the towel should be thrown in just yet. There is a long way to go but I truly believe eventually the UK will catch up.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, of course not. But wherever you go, there are idiots who can't do their jobs properly. Someone I know worked with a manager who was actually losing the company money with their bad practices. Company was lumbered. I've managed people who really should not be in their jobs, but you keep on giving them a go, or hope they'll achieve something positive by training them for an NVQ, but you're wasting your time half the time. The problem is, a lot of these types are all talk, and talk themselves into management positions, but they can't manage, pass the buck, and the underlings get the blame. That's really where the problems lie.

I have no idea what you do but if this is how your company is then they are not recruiting correctly or maybe you are not managing people correctly. Or maybe your total lack of faith in people rubs off on them?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I have been to both Bulgaria and Romania and seen some of the housing. Nay, bought some of the housing and looked at many slums before I made the mistake of buying a house.

Ah, okay I now know why you are so bitter.

So, in summary like many inexperienced people you thought you could make a quick buck out of Bulgarian housing and it didn't work out. I'm sorry but that is life with investments...they may go up as well as down.

 

[HovaGirl]

I have no idea what you do but if this is how your company is then they are not recruiting correctly or maybe you are not managing people correctly. Or maybe your total lack of faith in people rubs off on them?

These days, I'm speaking more as a consumer than as a worker, where there seem to be incompetent people all over the place, whether in shops or over the phone or listening to other people's similar experiences with companies. As a worker training people on NVQs, I'm talking of more 15 years ago. My friend's experience was just a few months ago. More than thirty years ago, I was a manager in a large company and they asked me how I could help save the company money during that recession. They wanted to trim the salary bill. I devised criteria of employment (working hours, productivity, etc) which I knew about half of them (about 25 people) wouldn't be able to uphold. They were given three letters of warning and then dismissed. I halved the staff, but the output doubled, as I knew it would.

 

[bazbha]

This seems totally straight forward to me. If the EU is as marvellous as some suggest then whenever we have the referendum then surely the majority will vote to stay in? Why the objection to a referendum by some?

 

[JCL666]

I didn't say that Europe "as an entity" waged war on us, but individual nations have.

Several nations have invaded us or been at war with us: Italy (aka Rome); Denmark (aka the Jutes); Germany (aka the Saxons); Germany (aka the Angles); Norway/Sweden (aka the Vikings); France (aka the Normans); France (Hundred Years' War); Spain (aka the Armada); Holland (aka William of Orange, though this was bloodless, friendly and he was invited); Germany (aka Hitler).

Thanks for clarifying that you were referring to any nation state that has origins in Europe. Now can you explain what on earth that has to do with our EU membership?

As I am fairly sure that there is no correlation between the Vikings and our EU membership.

 

[The Spanish]

Thanks for clarifying that you were referring to any nation state that has origins in Europe. Now can you explain what on earth that has to do with our EU membership?

As I am fairly sure that there is no correlation between the Vikings and our EU membership.

and the homelands of the vikings are notoriously eurosceptic nowadays.