Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[HovaGirl]

But the car mechanic will say "I see where you're coming from but I have this age old arrangement where I service and polish these lovely Mercs and Audis. Thanks but no thanks."

Also, you seem to forget its only the English which always like a bargain. Money is only part of the consideration in other countries. Cheapest is not always best and the reason most German taxi drivers drive a Merc.

German Mercs are mostly diesel and a lot cheaper than the Mercs we buy here, especially as we pay import tax on them, and they don't. And it isn't only the English who like a bargain. They think you're nuts, in foreign markets, if you don't barter with them. They snigger to themselves if you just pay whatever they ask.

We are doing increased business with China and Brazil, the two greatest growing economies. We've always kept on the good side of India, even sending them aid while they are richer than us. We have long had a "special relationship" with the USA and we have our Commonwealth partners. Who says we will be friendless and out in the cold if we leave Europe? If we leave Europe, then watch France, Germany, Italy and Spain wish they could follow us, but they don't have the contacts outside Europe that we do. They all need us far more than we need them, but the powers that be, would like to try to convince you otherwise.

 

[dingodan]

You really aren't telling me anything I don't know and have known for decades, ever since Ike and his followers decided to latch on to it. Have you ever wondered if it's that much of a closely guarded secret an dweebs from the internet much like yourself are able to produce a list if attendees? No thought not.

The fact that we know who attends means that what they are doing must be agreeable, because if it was not then we would not know who they are?

In a way I agree, but then it's very difficult to keep attendance a secret when you are high profile. They have tried very hard to stay secret and for many decades it was not reported on, and attendees denied attending, or even knowing what it was.

But let's extend your logic. If things being open is a sign that there is nothing to hide, then things being closed is a sign that there could be. We know who attends, but we don't know what is discussed. Attendees are specifically told not to talk about the meetings, and that is only the actual seminars, not the breakfasts, and rounds of golf that they share. The way I look at it, it's kind of like going on one of those speed dating nights. You want to get round to everyone's table and bend their ear.

In many ways I kind of agree with your assessment, obviously I don't believe that they are plotting to blow up the moon, but I assume that you would agree that there is plenty of room for a degree of both financial and political corruption. I actually don't think we would disagree about the meat and potatoes of what goes on. I just think we view the implications of what goes on very differently.

Let me ask you this, O.k. you don't believe that the Bilderberg Meetings constitute a sinister conspiracy, but in the interests of representative government, do you think that they are something which people should be concerned about at all? Do you think it is right and proper that these meetings take place? Genuinely interested.

 

[User removed 4]

German Mercs are mostly diesel and a lot cheaper than the Mercs we buy here, especially as we pay import tax on them, and they don't. And it isn't only the English who like a bargain. They think you're nuts, in foreign markets, if you don't barter with them. They snigger to themselves if you just pay whatever they ask.

We are doing increased business with China and Brazil, the two greatest growing economies. We've always kept on the good side of India, even sending them aid while they are richer than us. We have long had a "special relationship" with the USA and we have our Commonwealth partners. Who says we will be friendless and out in the cold if we leave Europe? If we leave Europe, then watch France, Germany, Italy and Spain wish they could follow us, but they don't have the contacts outside Europe that we do. They all need us far more than we need them, but the powers that be, would like to try to convince you otherwise.

Much as I agree with you, i'm sure we dont pay import tax ? As for our "special" relationship with the US, the only country the USA has a special relationship with is Israel.

 

[dingodan]

yes, the racists and general nutters dont help the eurosceptic cause. but they dont represent all those opposed to the lack of real democracy, unaccountable buracracy, wastfullness and general fuckwittery of the EU and its institutions. the pro-EU brigade would do themselves a favor to address the concerns and not appear to want to rush head long into ever further and deeper political and economic integregration, without first acknowledging and resolving alot of the problems at its foundation. the risk is, and we are seeing a glimpse of it with the economics in some countries right now, that the EU will spectacularly implode in the future due to widespread dissaffection caused by injustices built in to the EU.

I agree with you.

 

[HovaGirl]

I thought it was an interesting point. Which is a bigger threat to the UK working class, competition from Eastern European immigrants or looser labour laws that allow workers to be fired on a whim ?

Loose labour laws sound heartless, but they kept workers on their toes and keen to keep their jobs. If they left their job, there was always someone local to fill it. And if that new someone was useless, there was always someone else, and someone else, until you found the worker who could do the job properly. Now, so many companies are staffed by people who just don't know how to do their job, but they can't be got rid of.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I'm not sure of his grasp of economics but his point is valid, the USA wants us as part of Europe for geo-political reasons, the same way that they are encouraging Turkish membership, no more no less.What point are you trying to make ?

1 It is constitutionally impossible for an individual to stop trade on behalf of either the USA or the commonwealth.
2 Free trade is everything to do with the TERMS that goods are traded on.

and I disagree that the US is solely viewing this as geo-political. There is a strong case for economic stability aiding the global economy.

The Turkish economy is actually quite strong right now and they arguably have a better case for EU membership than some of the countries that have joined before them.

 

[HovaGirl]

its funny, the objections against having a vote are from the pro-europeans. one of the main objections to the EU is the lack of proper democracy and accountability. why do those in favor of EU fear democractic input so much?

Because so many of them have jobs they might lose if we left Europe.

 

[Nibble]

The fact that we know who attends means that what they are doing must be agreeable, because if it was not then we would not know who they are?

In a way I agree, but then it's very difficult to keep attendance a secret when you are high profile. They have tried very hard to stay secret and for many decades it was not reported on, and attendees denied attending, or even knowing what it was.

But let's extend your logic. If things being open is a sign that there is nothing to hide, then things being closed is a sign that there could be. We know who attends, but we don't know what is discussed. Attendees are specifically told not to talk about the meetings, and that is only the actual seminars, not the breakfasts, and rounds of golf that they share. The way I look at it, it's kind of like going on one of those speed dating nights. You want to get round to everyone's table and bend their ear.

In many ways I kind of agree with your assessment, obviously I don't believe that they are plotting to blow up the moon, but I assume that you would agree that there is plenty of room for a degree of both financial and political corruption. I actually don't think we would disagree about the meat and potatoes of what goes on. I just think we view the implications of what goes on very differently.

Let me ask you this, O.k. you don't believe that the Bilderberg Meetings constitute a sinister conspiracy, but in the interests of representative government, do you think that they are something which people should be concerned about at all? Do you think it is right and proper that these meetings take place? Genuinely interested.

I believe that this world runs on an old boys network. I believe these powerful people get together and talk about all manner of things. I believe they are confidential meetings, in the same sense that any meeting in a work place is to a scale. I believe they probably have a good laugh about CT's wondering what they are up to as they are playing a few games of pool and ogling the princesses tits. I don't believe they are sinister, I believe they are confidential. It's aparty you're not invited to, so what?

 

[Nibble]

Loose labour laws sound heartless, but they kept workers on their toes and keen to keep their jobs. If they left their job, there was always someone local to fill it. And if that new someone was useless, there was always someone else, and someone else, until you found the worker who could do the job properly. Now, so many companies are staffed by people who just don't know how to do their job, but they can't be got rid of.

Myth

 

[CheeseRolls]

Loose labour laws sound heartless, but they kept workers on their toes and keen to keep their jobs. If they left their job, there was always someone local to fill it. And if that new someone was useless, there was always someone else, and someone else, until you found the worker who could do the job properly. Now, so many companies are staffed by people who just don't know how to do their job, but they can't be got rid of.

Fantastic, now it is not just the public sector that is packed with useless layabouts, it is the private sector as well and of course training is someone else's responsibility.

 

[User removed 4]

1 It is constitutionally impossible for an individual to stop trade on behalf of either the USA or the commonwealth.
2 Free trade is everything to do with the TERMS that goods are traded on.

and I disagree that the US is solely viewing this as geo-political. There is a strong case for economic stability aiding the global economy.

The Turkish economy is actually quite strong right now and they arguably have a better case for EU membership than some of the countries that have joined before them.

This is what he posted

" So come on, where's the statement from the US or the Commonwealth that they would stop trading with us ? The US have said they would prefer they we stayed in but that's a world apart from saying they won't trade with us.

Normal pro-EU scaremongering. "

Where has he mentioned individuals stopping trade on behalf of the commonwealth or USA etc, or mentioned trade terms ? Nowhere as far as I can see, so whats your point about his grasp of economics ? Your post in answer to mine really doesnt answer my question , does it ?

 

[soistes]

Loose labour laws sound heartless, but they kept workers on their toes and keen to keep their jobs. If they left their job, there was always someone local to fill it. And if that new someone was useless, there was always someone else, and someone else, until you found the worker who could do the job properly. Now, so many companies are staffed by people who just don't know how to do their job, but they can't be got rid of.

Yes, they can.

This is complete nonsense

OECD evidence on the strictness of employment protection legislation show that it's easier to sack an employee in the UK than in almost any other developed country (apart from US and Canada). You now have to work for two years for an employer before you can lodge a claim for unfair dismissal (and then you have to prove that it was unfair, rather than because, say, your performance was poor). If an employer can't work out, before they've had someone working for them for two years, whether that person is any good, then they are a fairly incompetent employer and don't deserve to be in business.

 

[yxee]

Loose labour laws sound heartless, but they kept workers on their toes and keen to keep their jobs. If they left their job, there was always someone local to fill it. And if that new someone was useless, there was always someone else, and someone else, until you found the worker who could do the job properly. Now, so many companies are staffed by people who just don't know how to do their job, but they can't be got rid of.

Even more than that, they can actually increase employment. If I'm a manager, I'm far more likely to hire someone if I know I won't have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get rid of them later on. And so much of the current problems are down to scepticism and risk-aversion on the part of corporations.

 

[HovaGirl]

If we are going to stay in the EU we should be at its heart and fully intergrated a USE if you will. We will be better off 100% commited to Europe and taking part in the governance shaping policy and direction than sulking on the sidelines. Immigration is the biggest stick that people beat the EU with but if we had the same currancy armed forces health care pensions education people wouldnt leave there homelands

But Europe is never going to achieve all those things, because every nation in Europe has a different attitude and cultural way of doing and thinking about things. And there is much financial disparity between nations. The poorer nations, like Bulgaria and Romania are rubbing their hands with glee at all the European money which is going to be tarmacked all over their countries, and at the reduction in benefits they will have to pay to their huge numbers of unemployed because they'll all hop off to England, the land of milk and honey. If you can imagine the worst slum in England, the very worst, most Bulgarian and Romanian nationals live in houses even worse than that. To them, a shed at the bottom of someone's garden is luxury compared to what they live in, now. With the hope of a job, a shed to live in, and a state that will pay them to live here, they will come in their droves.

 

[dingodan]

I believe that this world runs on an old boys network. I believe these powerful people get together and talk about all manner of things. I believe they are confidential meetings, in the same sense that any meeting in a work place is to a scale. I believe they probably have a good laugh about CT's wondering what they are up to as they are playing a few games of pool and ogling the princesses tits. I don't believe they are sinister, I believe they are confidential. It's aparty you're not invited to, so what?

If politicians want to meet with media moguls, and industrial tycoons, and heads of state, members of other governments, members of Royal Families, there are ways to do that. Those ways are through Official channels, they are subject to a degree of transparency and media scrutiny, and most importantly public scrutiny.

There are reasons that things are done this way, those reasons being to avoid conflicts of interest and corruption.

Like you, I believe that this world runs on an old boys network (although it is not just comprised of men). But you seem to think that is fine, I think that there is something not right about that, and it baffles me that people pretend it is not so, or when accepting that it is so, suggest that anyone who has a problem with it is mad or should be marginalized.

It's like you have Stolkholm Syndrome.

 

[CheeseRolls]

This is what he posted

" So come on, where's the statement from the US or the Commonwealth that they would stop trading with us ? The US have said they would prefer they we stayed in but that's a world apart from saying they won't trade with us.

Normal pro-EU scaremongering. "

Where has he mentioned individuals stopping trade on behalf of the commonwealth or USA etc, or mentioned trade terms ? Nowhere as far as I can see, so whats your point about his grasp of economics ? Your post in answer to mine really doesnt answer my question , does it ?

Who is going to make the blanket statement he is requesting ? and with what authority ?

 

[ALBION28]

Well, of the 3 major parties:
Labour - no referendum
Lib/Dem - no referendum
Tories - you get your referendum

Vote UKIP, and that will pinch many of the Tory votes and let in Labour and/or the Cleggmobiles.

It's a case of voting for the least worst option.

UKIP remains the only option for the referendum. Tories trying to steal UKIP vote!

 

[User removed 4]

Who is going to make the blanket statement he is requesting ? and with what authority ?

A politician ? Obama has very recently come out in favour of us staying in the EU, plenty of people have the authority to make statements .

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Who says we will be friendless and out in the cold if we leave Europe?

Cameron himself has said the UK is seen as a gateway to the EU. If we are not in the EU then we will not be a gateway will we?

Anyway. I am in the UK out camp.

 

[JCL666]

Even more than that, they can actually increase employment. If I'm a manager, I'm far more likely to hire someone if I know I won't have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get rid of them later on. And so much of the current problems are down to scepticism and risk-aversion on the part of corporations.

Absolute bollocks.

This is based on the assumption that the manager is some kind of omnipotent being and there is a constant supply of skilled people to fill specific jobs.

Are you really saying that you'll employ people if it's easier to get rid of them?