Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[User removed 4]

It's not about who we are friends with, it's about who we (historically) trade and fight wars with.

The EFTA exists so we can trade freely with our Geographically nearest neighbours.

The EU exists so we don't ever again have to declare war on our Geographically nearest neighbours.We are never going to declare war on either the US or a member of the Commonwealth.........

No it doesnt, that might be the reasoning of the poodle french, who are perennially terrified of the germans, but thats certainly not how it was sold to us.

 

[dingodan]

No it doesnt, that might be the reasoning of the poodle french, who are perennially terrified of the germans, but thats certainly not how it was sold to us.

It was sold to us as the EEC, "it's about economic integration, not political integration".

And then, the old bait and switch.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Wow theres a lot of missinformation and misconceptions out there. The US and the commonwealth have both said that we need to stay in the EU if we dont they will find trade partners who are. If we leave the EU why would they give us a FTA? our economy will be in the shit whats left of our industry will leave these shores for a EU member that will allow free movement within the EU not some trade partner whos only role is to add another link and more expence.

In short we are far better off within Europe than out.

What if we sacked westminsiter and were ruled from Brussles everywhere had the same systems armed forces laws health education police?

Your first sentence is rather ironic as you then go on to make statements and assumptions with no evidence of fact. So come on, where's the statement from the US or the Commonwealth that they would stop trading with us ? The US have said they would prefer they we stayed in but that's a world apart from saying they won't trade with us.

Normal pro-EU scaremongering.

 

[yxee]

Party affiliations/stereotypes aside, let's say there does exist a third option of leaving the EU and continuing free trade with EU countries. Is there anyone who wouldn't grab this option with two hands?

The general feeling seems to be an argument over whether this option actually exists- and the implication being that if it did exist, then everyone would live happily ever after.

 

[dingodan]

 

[CheeseRolls]

Sorry, I obviously didn't realise that there is a law against us agreeing to mutually do away with tariffs .

You were the one proposing import tariffs.

Free trade ranks alongside world peace and an end to poverty, as desirable, but illusive. There are plenty of trade disputes that have been rumbling on for decades and it isn't always about simple tariffs

 

[Nibble]

I would take the anti EU brigade more seriously if they weren't already known for their "Immigrants are the sole cause of London's problems and we are being dictated to by Europe every day, PC gone mad I tells thee" stance on global politics. Honestly, some of your posts read like an Al Murray script.

As for me I can see plusses and minuses for both arguments but don't feel ultimately it is in our best interest to leave. Mt argument against UKIP isn't that they have a different view on Europe it's that they are a spectacular nonsense of "party".

 

[Nibble]

I would take the anti EU brigade more seriously if they weren't already known for their "Immigrants are the sole cause of London's problems and we are being dictated to by Europe every day, PC gone mad I tells thee" stance on global politics. Honestly, some of your posts read like an Al Murray script.

As for me I can see plusses and minuses for both arguments but don't feel ultimately it is in our best interest to leave. Mt argument against UKIP isn't that they have a different view on Europe it's that they are a spectacular nonsense of "party".

 

[User removed 4]

I would take the anti EU brigade more seriously if they weren't already known for their "Immigrants are the sole cause of London's problems and we are being dictated to by Europe every day, PC gone mad I tells thee" stance on global politics. Honestly, some of your posts read like an Al Murray script.

As for me I can see plusses and minuses for both arguments but don't feel ultimately it is in our best interest to leave. Mt argument against UKIP isn't that they have a different view on Europe it's that they are a spectacular nonsense of "party".

This is where your argument falls down, at the moment I dont know which way i'd vote, what we do need is an open debate, far too many factors to decide upon without one.

 

[dingodan]

Party affiliations/stereotypes aside, let's say there does exist a third option of leaving the EU and continuing free trade with EU countries. Is there anyone who wouldn't grab this option with two hands?

The general feeling seems to be an argument over whether this option actually exists- and the implication being that if it did exist, then everyone would live happily ever after.

Good observation. And very correct. There is nothing to say we cannot trade with countries in the EU if we leave. I believe that the best approach to international relations was summed up by Thomas Jefferson, "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none".

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

No it doesnt, that might be the reasoning of the poodle french, who are perennially terrified of the germans, but thats certainly not how it was sold to us.

I might be thick here but weren't we and the French both on the same side in both World Wars?

The benefits to the French are exactly the same as the benefits to us. If you think 25 miles of English Channel was going to stop Adolf in 1940 you're being a bit naive.

And the recent co-operation between the UK and France on Libya and Malawi proves that that alliance is still alive and kicking..........

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I would take the anti EU brigade more seriously if they weren't already known for their "Immigrants are the sole cause of London's problems and we are being dictated to by Europe every day, PC gone mad I tells thee" stance on global politics. Honestly, some of your posts read like an Al Murray script.

I'm very happy for you to attempt to show where I've ever said either of these two things.

 

[User removed 4]

I might be thick here but weren't we and the French both on the same side in both World Wars?

The benefits to the French are exactly the same as the benefits to us. If you think 25 miles of English Channel was going to stop Adolf in 1940 you're being a bit naive.

we were on the same side, ever since entente cordiale I believe, i'm not quite sure what your point is ? I mentioned the french might see the EU as a vehicle to avoid wars, but that certainly wasnt how it was sold to us, anyway , we have NATO for that, as for your point abount the english channel, what are you on about , or did i miss the part in history lessons about the success of operation sealion in 1940 ??

 

[Nibble]

Wow, just look how many have turned up to hear this genius. Actually mainstream media did used to report on it, some even did investigations. They soon realised it was a bunch of politicians and business men haveing a weekend jolly and f***ed it off. I suggest you do the same.

 

[Nibble]

I'm very happy for you to attempt to show where I've ever said either of these two things.

Youdon't have such an extreme view, you do have quite an irritating degree of know it all pomposity about you though.

 

[Nibble]

This is where your argument falls down, at the moment I dont know which way i'd vote, what we do need is an open debate, far too many factors to decide upon without one.

I'm not predicting what way you would vote I'm merely stating that the rhetoric in your prior arguments makes me take your opinion less seriously. Not an insult, just an observation.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

we were on the same side, ever since entente cordiale I believe, i'm not quite sure what your point is ? I mentioned the french might see the EU as a vehicle to avoid wars, but that certainly wasnt how it was sold to us, anyway , we have NATO for that, as for your point abount the english channel, what are you on about , or did i miss the part in history lessons about the success of operation sealion in 1940 ??

So the British Expeditionary Force and Dunkirk was equally a success was it?

I am on about the EU preventing us from declaring war on Germany. Do you understand how important that is? NATO is different. NATO is purely and simply a military organisation whereby Countries agree to support each others armed forces. NATO performs NO Political role, and therefore cannot prevent wars breaking out between Countries.

We and Iceland are both members of NATO, but it didn't stop us having a trade war about fishing in the 1970's to the point where the Royal Navy were sent to escort our fishing fleet.

 

[dingodan]

Wow, just look how many have turned up to hear this genius. Actually mainstream media did used to report on it, some even did investigations. They soon realised it was a bunch of politicians and business men haveing a weekend jolly and f***ed it off. I suggest you do the same.

A weekend jolly? You're priceless

 

[User removed 4]

So the British Expeditionary Force and Dunkirk was equally a success was it?

I am on about the EU preventing us from declaring war on Germany. Do you understand how important that is? NATO is different. NATO is purely and simply a military organisation whereby Countries agree to support each others armed forces. NATO performs NO Political role, and therefore cannot prevent wars breaking out between Countries.

We and Iceland are both members of NATO, but it didn't stop us having a trade war about fishing in the 1970's to the point where the Royal Navy were sent to escort our fishing fleet.

Why do we have ambassadors to NATO ? Iceland is a member purely for its geographical importance, do you SERIOUSLY think that the germany of today , where we co-operate so closely within NATO is one we could go to war with ? Anyway , back to your point about the English channel, I ask again , if the 25 miles of open water DIDNT stop Hitler, can you let me know exactly when he did invade, and how and why its been kept so quiet ?

 

[Nibble]

A weekend jolly? You're priceless

Well of course they discuss how to execute business and how this could relate to politics. Then they go back to their respective fields of expertise or constituancies etc having exchanged info and ideas on how best to run businesses and maximise profits I shouldn't wonder. I;m sure most of them are arseholes but of course you would believe they will be in there eating babies and plotting to blow up the moon?