Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[Nibble]

An interesting argument but not one backed up with facts.

I've been a member of UKIP ( as well as Labour and the Conservatives ) and while I came across strange people in all of them but I didn't come across anyone that matches your description. It's not too difficult to find news headlines about members or MPs acting like the examples you've selectively used from any party.

As for "So basically you just like them because you just do.", no, I've learnt to read and and so read the policy documents of each party ahead of an election and then make a balanced decision. I suggest you try it sometime. At the moment, my main concern is our membership of a corrupt, failing and disastrous EU hence I'm drawn towards UKIP. Come 2015 I'll actually do a proper comparison before I place my cross.

No, it's completely backed up with facts. In fact I think Dave in Prague posted quotes and dates. As for where your cross goes I would recommend a proper comparison, yes.

 

[Hamilton]

You make fair points but the UK also wants to be on the big stage shaping and influencing the way the world is going. They, like the countries I mentioned, will not be able to do this from the margins.

I agree, and I want to build on your points.

I think there is a massive difference between the Swiss economy and ours. The Swiss economy is far from the largest in the world, whereas we are in the top 6 or 7. That economy is built on some pretty significant industry and services that are based here. We therefore rely on exporting agreements, and to have the weight of the EU behind us is a great benefit.

The Swiss economy is far more reliant on the inward investment it receives - people like it because it is independent, but then again it is far more transient and it is far from strong (the investment has the potential for being here today and gone tomorrow as money flows into the economy and flows out.) I don't see Switzerland as having a massive need for the export of goods - unlike the UK.

I understand the concern people have with the bureaucratic waste of the EU, and what is seen as meddling by EU politicians, but we need to see the politics of Europe and the economic benefits of Europe as two separate things. I feel that the economic benefits of being part of the EU bloc make being part of it worthwhile. I also think we need to address the bureaucratic waste - but that doesn't mean withdrawing from Europe, it means having the balls to change things for the better.

Of course a lot of the EU bashing is just a smokescreen thrown up by politicians and the media to meet their own hidden agendas. Here is a prime example...

How often have you heard on the news... "EU judges are ruling on the rights of Britons to..." or "A British firm is taking its case to EU judges to..."? In both cases you'd be forgiven for thinking that EU judges are meddling in the legal rights of Britons rather than actually modifying the law that will apply to all Europeans. This comes down to one simple attitude - we either see ourselves as playing an active part in progress for all Europeans or we see ourselves as having to live with Europeans. The latter attitude is not progressive and will get us nowhere. We need to change our attitude to Europe and stay in Europe. This has nothing to do with being Tory or Labour - it's an economic reality and our kids futures depend upon it (in my view.)

 

[User removed 4]

Black people can be racist. However the main point of this was that if their own candidates can't even present a coherant argument what chance does any of their supporters have? The main thrust of this McKenzie fella's argument seems to be "Vote for me and prove we are not the bunch of pricks people think we are". Hardly gonna set the world on fire is it. What a cackspaneer.

can you please start spelling coherent correctly , in your incoherent argument.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Agree with it or not, it's not hard to understand the UKIP position on Europe. And there are a significant minority out there who DO agree with that position.

Racism / sexism in UKIP is just a smokescreen, and probably no worse than in the Tory Party. If this WAS a significant issue it would have been bigger news by now.

 

[Nibble]

can you please start spelling coherent correctly , in your incoherent argument.

I do beg your pardon. The argument makes perfect sense you just don't understand it. We've been here before Bushy, you get backed into a corner and instead of coming up with anything sensible we get this pedantry. This is why all your debates end up in chaos. Bye.

 

[Meade's Ball]

Am glad Cameron has said he will give the British population, us, the right to have a say in this. That means that the next war the majority of us are clearly against entering, we won't go into. Tis terribly nice to be listened to and involved in something that requires very little education to understand.
A sickening lust for permanent power comes in the guise of offering something to retain mainly the nasty racists in your party and electorate.

 

[User removed 4]

I do beg your pardon. The argument makes perfect sense you just don't understand it. We've been here before Bushy, you get backed into a corner and instead of coming up with anything sensible we get this pedantry. This is why all your debates end up in chaos. Bye.

Nibble , we all know this is the prelude to a " thats it i'm out of here" type flounce from you , as you've been unable to prove any of your very weak points.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Agree with it or not, it's not hard to understand the UKIP position on Europe. And there are a significant minority out there who DO agree with that position.

Racism / sexism in UKIP is just a smokescreen, and probably no worse than in the Tory Party. If this WAS a significant issue it would have been bigger news by now.

There you go. I could not have said that better myself.

 

[Nibble]

Agree with it or not, it's not hard to understand the UKIP position on Europe. And there are a significant minority out there who DO agree with that position.

Racism / sexism in UKIP is just a smokescreen, and probably no worse than in the Tory Party. If this WAS a significant issue it would have been bigger news by now.

I think their homophobia nd racism has been fairly big news of sorts. As much coverage as a minor, up to now completely insignificant party are ever going to get. I'm sure Cameron is getting his people to dig as much dirts as he can however. If by some strange event they were ever voted into power you'd see a pretty quick rise to the surface of just how racist and homophobic this rather nasty bunch can be.

 

[User removed 4]

I think their homophobia nd racism has been fairly big news of sorts. As much coverage as a minor, up to now completely insignificant party are ever going to get. I'm sure Cameron is getting his people to dig as much dirts as he can however. If by some strange event they were ever voted into power you'd see a pretty quick rise to the surface of just how racist and homophobic this rather nasty bunch can be.

They wont be voted into power, I dont think anybody is suggesting they will be , the best they can hope for , and what I think will be their aim, is to get one or two ministerial posts in a coalition.

 

[daveinprague]

When the founder, and leader of the party leaves, because he is appalled at the racists his party has attracted, well, Thats not a 'lefty smear'...thats the ex leader, and founder of the party talking...not me.
Im inclined to believe him.

 

[daveinprague]

They wont be voted into power, I dont think anybody is suggesting they will be , the best they can hope for , and what I think will be their aim, is to get one or two ministerial posts in a coalition.

A coalition with who?? About the best they could possibly do, and even then, its doubtful, is putting themselves ahead of libdems

 

[User removed 4]

When the founder, and leader of the party leaves, because he is appalled at the racists his party has attracted, well, Thats not a 'lefty smear'...thats the ex leader, and founder of the party talking...not me.
Im inclined to believe him.

Its laughable , really, the way you will accept as definitive proof something that supports your point of view, yet the same in reverse is dismissed out of hand, you're a joke.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

The Swiss have dozens of separate individual free trade agreements to make this work. It would take decades for the UK to negotiate similar arrangements.

Plus the Swiss still have to abide with EU regulation when trading with EU member states. Just as the UK would if it ever decided to leave.

The reality is that the Swiss, and Norwegians, have to absorb all the costs associated with meeting these regulations without having any say in how those regulations are formulated. It's a huge additional cost on their Economy and makes their prices seem extremely uncompetitive by comparison with suppliers from EU member states, simply because their businesses all have to play 'catch up'.

 

[User removed 4]

A coalition with who?? About the best they could possibly do, and even then, its doubtful, is putting themselves ahead of libdems

The tories, who do you think ?

 

[daveinprague]

certainly not the tories....particulary with Cameron as the leader.

 

[User removed 4]

certainly not the tories....particulary with Cameron as the leader.

why's that ?

 

[daveinprague]

Its laughable , really, the way you will accept as definitive proof something that supports your point of view, yet the same in reverse is dismissed out of hand, you're a joke.

The ex FOUNDER and LEADER of UKIP says its full of racists......which is why he left.....but hey...if you say thats not the case....

 

[HovaGirl]

You make fair points but the UK also wants to be on the big stage shaping and influencing the way the world is going. They, like the countries I mentioned, will not be able to do this from the margins.

We have friends other than Europe: the Commonwealth and the USA. Our little tiny island nation crept out from its cold North Sea backwater many centuries ago, and dominated much of the world. Europe didn't like that one bit and after centuries of waging wars against us, they changed their tactic and succeeded in ruling us politically by subterfuge. We should go back to what we voted for in 1975.

 

[daveinprague]

OK Bushy....you go ahead and believe that there is the SLIGHTEST chance that UKIP will be in any coalition with the tories with Cameron as leader....good luck.