Too Socialist or too Centre Left?

[Soulman]

Dont worry, the will of the people is to give the conservatives another five years. You can always move to Germany

Then he could become an expert on our elections....predict the outcome etc.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Happy here thanks. I love being British. It is the greatest nation on earth and I would never live anywhere else.
The will of the people has spoken and I am fortunate enough to be not in the line of fire of the chosen government.

The truly great thing about being British Is tolerance and compassion.
The Tory party do not represent these values. Which is why I will always despise them.

They represent the values of Britian, which is why they have been voted in again. The values of aspiration, of trade, of independent voice. They are not out to get anyone, but through aspiration rightly want to make work better than the dole. Makes sense to me and many many more. But yes, i understand why some individuals willhate them, just as some hate Labour

 

[Dandyman]

Too right-wing. The Blairite idea that the core vote had no where to go has been exposed as the nonsense it is. People simply did not vote or in Scotland went for the SNP. Say goodbye to home victory won in 1945.

 

[JCL666]

After 1992, the Labour party changed significantly in order to get elected. Personally I think that change lit the fire for UKIP and also as it goes the SNP result yesterday.

In effect they turned their back on their core vote and aligned themselves with the aspirational middle class. After the death of John Smith, they then appointed one of the most astute political leaders of modern times.

The mistake in recent times was returning to the core vote and neglecting the voters they had wooed in the late 90s. Unlike other countries in Europe (including Scotland), you cannot win an election in this country with a left wing agenda.

The Scottish thing is slightly different. In addition to being open to a left wing ideology, people up there are pissed off with Westminster and have been for years. What we have seen is continuing momentum post the referendum, aligned with a quite brilliant campaign from the SNP.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

They represent the values of Britian, which is why they have been voted in again. The values of aspiration, of trade, of independent voice. They are not out to get anyone, but through aspiration rightly want to make work better than the dole. Makes sense to me and many many more. But yes, i understand why some individuals willhate them, just as some hate Labour

They don't represent those values any more. Thatcher did. I can't argue against that. What she did was revolutionary. I personally didn't agree with it. But she defined politics for a generation and more

The current crop of Tories Are trading on that legacy. However the policies do not assist the upwardly mobile in the way that the Thatcher era did.
This is part of the great deception. The upwardly mobile assume that they should be better off with a Tory government.
However as yet this has not transpired. The need to blame the last labour government for the lack of the trickle down to the aspiring classes is essential to keep the dream alive. IMHO.

We'll see. In 5 years time we will know one way or another.
Bonne chance!

 

[Hampster Gull]

They don't represent those values any more. Thatcher did. I can't argue against that. What she did was revolutionary. I personally didn't agree with it. But she defined politics for a generation and more

The current crop of Tories Are trading on that legacy. However the policies do not assist the upwardly mobile in the way that the Thatcher era did.
This is part of the great deception. The upwardly mobile assume that they should be better off with a Tory government.
However as yet this has not transpired. The need to blame the last labour government for the lack of the trickle down to the aspiring classes is essential to keep the dream alive. IMHO.

We'll see. In 5 years time we will know one way or another.
Bonne chance!

Clearly these tories are a more watered down version of Thatcher. She was more to the right by some margin, as many earlier labour governments were more to the left. But that is no bad thing, someone had to turnaround the country and she did it but it was hugely devisive. There is no need for that now, we are not as broken. The values i talked a out you can challenge but they are far more repsresentative of these tories than this labour party

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Clearly these tories are a more watered down version of Thatcher. She was more to the right by some margin, as many earlier labour governments were more to the left. But that is no bad thing, someone had to turnaround the country and she did it but it was hugely devisive. There is no need for that now, we are not as broken. The values i talked a out you can challenge but they are far more repsresentative of these tories than this labour party

I can almost agree with you at times. However you may not have noticed,but I have frequently identified that my statements are my opinion. You, like most Tories state your opinion as if they are indisputable facts.

Politics is not actually a matter of facts. It is a series of beliefs, assumptions and instincts. The facts lie in the middle ground away from the dogma.

This Tory government have failed against most of thee 2010 election pledges. And have been returned with an enhanced share of the house.
A similar labour government would have been booted out of the same performance.
That is why us left leaning fools get so angry with the system.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

In hindsight Labour will have to go back to being Blue Labour again if they want any chance of taking power. Placing themselves as centre/slightly right of centre they can occupy the middle of the road position vacated by the Conservatives.

 

[Hampster Gull]

They don't represent those values any more. Thatcher did. I can't argue against that. What she did was revolutionary. I personally didn't agree with it. But she defined politics for a generation and more

The current crop of Tories Are trading on that legacy. However the policies do not assist the upwardly mobile in the way that the Thatcher era did.
This is part of the great deception. The upwardly mobile assume that they should be better off with a Tory government.
However as yet this has not transpired. The need to blame the last labour government for the lack of the trickle down to the aspiring classes is essential to keep the dream alive. IMHO.

We'll see. In 5 years time we will know one way or another.
Bonne chance!

Anyway, we cango around this for a while bu the vote is done for now. My question was were labour too left wing as a party in the runin to vote or too close to the centre. What was your view? Dont worry about the tories, just on labour!

 

[Hampster Gull]

I can almost agree with you at times. However you may not have noticed,but I have frequently identified that my statements are my opinion. You, like most Tories state your opinion as if they are indisputable facts.

Politics is not actually a matter of facts. It is a series of beliefs, assumptions and instincts. The facts lie in the middle ground away from the dogma.

This Tory government have failed against most of thee 2010 election pledges. And have been returned with an enhanced share of the house.
A similar labour government would have been booted out of the same performance.
That is why us left leaning fools get so angry with the system.

I get that. I dont use IMO because, well, almost everythig on here and in politics is "IMO" so it would become repetitive . Anyway lets not go around this, i am genuinely interested in your view of whether labour was too socialist or to close tothe centre. No angle, i have a view but would like to know from those in tehe labour camp

 

[Hampster Gull]

Livingstone on Newsnight. labour not far enough to the left, talking the class war. The reason miliband failed i because he had the new labour legacy. It is clear where he is on this debate

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Anyway, we cango around this for a while bu the vote is done for now. My question was were labour too left wing as a party in the runin to vote or too close to the centre. What was your view? Dont worry about the tories, just on labour!

My view remains that policy is not truly the problem.
All 3 main parties position themselves as central. Therefore there is little to chose between them purely on policy.

I think this plays out in the general mismatch of seats won against the incumbent across the country. Conservative beating labour and liberals in various seats . But labour beating conservatives in other regions. No real pattern or swing.
The UKIP factor added to this unpredictability.

I believe Labour and the liberals lost out this time because both have been guilty of aligning themselves with the Tories over the last five years.
The LibDems as coalition partners and labour on the Scottish referendum.
Both have been squeezed in previous strongholds. Weakening their over all position. Labour in Scotland and the Liberals everywhere.

This has enabled the Tories to focus on picking off individual seats across the country, whilst the other parties have fought multiple battles nationally.
If labour had targeted the lib dem seats in the same way the Tories seem to have done, they may have held out for a hung parliament.

The Tories played a great campaign.

Labour have a choice now between a strong leader and a more clearly defined and different set of policies.
I can't think of a strong leader in waiting, so they may move to a more clearly left wing agenda.
Another alternative is to absorb the liberals or splinter off like the SDP of old. Unlikely but after a few months of in fighting, who knows.

 

[Hampster Gull]

My view remains that policy is not truly the problem.
All 3 main parties position themselves as central. Therefore there is little to chose between them purely on policy.

I think this plays out in the general mismatch of seats won against the incumbent across the country. Conservative beating labour and liberals in various seats . But labour beating conservatives in other regions. No real pattern or swing.
The UKIP factor added to this unpredictability.

I believe Labour and the liberals lost out this time because both have been guilty of aligning themselves with the Tories over the last five years.
The LibDems as coalition partners and labour on the Scottish referendum.
Both have been squeezed in previous strongholds. Weakening their over all position. Labour in Scotland and the Liberals everywhere.

This has enabled the Tories to focus on picking off individual seats across the country, whilst the other parties have fought multiple battles nationally.
If labour had targeted the lib dem seats in the same way the Tories seem to have done, they may have held out for a hung parliament.

The Tories played a great campaign.

Labour have a choice now between a strong leader and a more clearly defined and different set of policies.
I can't think of a strong leader in waiting, so they may move to a more clearly left wing agenda.
Another alternative is to absorb the liberals or splinter off like the SDP of old. Unlikely but after a few months of in fighting, who knows.

Hmz. I think Labour have no hope on the policies that Red Ed ran, they have to move to the centre left where the vast bulk of the votes are. they need to do something different in Scotland obviously. A strong leader and clearly defined policies wont do it, it needs to be what the people want.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Livingstone on Newsnight. labour not far enough to the left, talking the class war. The reason miliband failed i because he had the new labour legacy. It is clear where he is on this debate

I can see both labour and liberals pulling themselves apart over the next 6 months.
Milliband and Clegg's resignations would not have been truly expected. There is a void in both parties which could create a lot of infighting.

Interesting times

 

[Hampster Gull]

Interesting times

We agree 100% on this, IMO (�&#56842

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Hmz. I think Labour have no hope on the policies that Red Ed ran, they have to move to the centre left where the vast bulk of the votes are. they need to do something different in Scotland obviously. A strong leader and clearly defined policies wont do it, it needs to be what the people want.

I disagree. Most new governments are based on what the electorate don't want. I.e. The incumbent. Very few are purely won
on better policies by the other parties.
If this were the case the old liberals would have been a shoo in for,most of the previous elections.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I disagree. Most new governments are based on what the electorate don't want. I.e. The incumbent. Very few are purely won
on better policies by the other parties.
If this were the case the old liberals would have been a shoo in for,most of the previous elections.

I look forward to a socialist agenda at the next election which i thinkwillbe anotther michael foot moment

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I look forward to a socialist agenda at the next election then

Are there any socialists left? It will be interesting to see what evolves.
Militant Tendency II anyone?

 

[Hampster Gull]

Are there any socialists left? It will be interesting to see what evolves.
Militant Tendency II anyone?

there are plenty. Livingstone is one. Anyway, good luck on the journey to the left, wherever it leads. I look forward to observing

 

[Eeyore]

It depends on which framework of Socialism we are looking at.

Socially and culturally the UK has been underpinned by socialist ideology since World War II. Most for which (the NHS, social security etc) the differences have been in the detail, not the the principle. Even economically, and especially during the days of Butskellist consensus of the 50s, socialist ideals were still much lauded.

It is Thatcherism, and Murdoch 's love of the Friedmanist ideal, that set things apart economically. Both Labour and the Tories, to a degree, follow this framework now. Labour under Milliband would have been no different.

Labour lost the election because people are still scared of the word 'Socialism'. Even though most people fail to realise that they rather subscribe to it anyway.