Too Socialist or too Centre Left?

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Miliband got it just right, .

He clearly didn't.

 

[looney]

Thanks. My mum was not alone. There were thousands of people who lost their homes during this time. For some reason most people have forgotten about it.
The government controlled interest rates at that time. The conservatives decided to raise interest rates after their failure to prop up the pound against the ERM.They were culpable in the choice to treble the cost of mortgages.
This was during the peak of the endowment mortgage. Many many people were he bankrupt over night.

When the labour government were elected, Gordon Brown passed control of interest rates to the Bank of England.
This decision has kept interest rates low for a very long time. Which has kept the housing market stable and reliable.
One of the fundamental elements of the British economy.
This was a good thing. A sensible thing. Which has benefited the majority of Southern English voters over the last 15 years.
However no credit is ever given to Gordon Brown for this.

Thats because he didn't give the Central Bank Independence. It had been promoted for along time and most countries transfered powers to the Central banks. What Brown did was left the door open by letting the exchequer appoint the panel to the CB, ie Hawks or Doves. This is "Quasi-independence" as selections can be politicly motivated.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Thats because he didn't give the Central Bank Independence. It had been promoted for along time and most countries transfered powers to the Central banks. What Brown did was left the door open by letting the exchequer appoint the panel to the CB, ie Hawks or Doves. This is "Quasi-independence" as selections can be politicly motivated.

Significantly better than letting politicians make the call their decision is always politically motivated..

 

[beorhthelm]

So why does the myth that it is only labour who cannot be trusted with the economy perpetuate?
It isn't based on current policy, or historical evidence.

its because of the economic prowess in the 60's and 70's. it true that Tory failings in the same period are glossed over, but ultimatly it was Labour that went to the IMF and Labour that left the utter mess at the end of the 70's. their failings had been worse than the Tories, so the lack of trust stuck.

 

[Hampster Gull]

what pain? I'm sorry but I have given you a genuine example of the effect of policy on individuals. Thousands of individuals lost there homes because they could not afford to pay 16% interest on their mortgages.

The global recession has left Britain with a deficit. Which is either being paid off by austerity measures, or not depending on which political persuasion you lean too.
Those people who could have lost everything during the crisis, but were given some protection by the Labour government. Not left to go homeless, like the previous government did.

My point is that both Parties have had to deal with issues that have led to recessions in the economy.
Bad stuff happens.
Governments make a call. With power comes responsibility. GB made a call to minimise catastrophic impact to blameless individuals.

Ed Milliband has not said I'm gonna spend my way out of this mess.
So why does the myth that it is only labour who cannot be trusted with the economy perpetuate?
It isn't based on current policy, or historical evidence.
It is only Propaganda. IMHO.

The pain of the last 7 years as we get back on our feet, it has perhaps passed you by but not the vast buk of the country. Following yet another Labour government. I know, i know, it had nothing to do with Labour. The illegal war, where they duped the coutry intogoing to war and killed tens of thousands, nothing to do with Labour.

You have a family example, so? Sodo i, as do many. I remeber the ratses at 16% (which was the short term peak you chose to highlight) I moved into a family home, renting a room. they were struggling and found a way around the problem.

I remember the fall out from the 70s which made us the leper of europe and took huge pain to get u back on our feet (again).

 

[Uh_huh_him]

its because of the economic prowess in the 60's and 70's. it true that Tory failings in the same period are glossed over, but ultimatly it was Labour that went to the IMF and Labour that left the utter mess at the end of the 70's. their failings had been worse than the Tories, so the lack of trust stuck.

Sorry. I wasn't clear. I understand where the argument comes from.
What I meant to say was this. The argument that it is only Labour that have made serious errors of judgement which have had devastating effects is Bollox.

The Tories last one was inexcusable and motivated purely for political motives.
Labours decision was in response to the potential impact of the banking sectors recklessness.

 

[GT49er]

Too left or too right? Hard one to call. Blair went too right, and Michael Foot and the Militant Tendency sent the party far too far to the left to be electable in 1983. Trouble is, Labour will always have to put up with this fall-back position that a small but significant number of voters have gone for since the war.
https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?322285-Political-quote-of-the-day
Yeh, not the brightest sparks of political awareness, but there are many of them!

 

[peterward]

what they proposed on 5 live tonight might possibly be the way forward. to split Scottish Lab from England/Wales Lab, to move Scottish left and English/Welsh to centre and then to have a coalition if electoral maths add up at GE.

Labour needs to rethink its message, stop divisive them and us class warfare bollox, stop telling lies about past failings..... and give up on leftist socialism in England as i am convinced in the main England and especially the crucial middle classes, are centrist. the majority want compassionate fair policies and social justice but also with sound economic stewardship. Aspirational politics that appeals to people desire to create enterprise or work and to better their lot, not look at them and envy.....

When Labour puts itself back in that middle ground with a clear vision, and accepts its past failings, it can and will win again......

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The pain of the last 7 years as we get back on our feet, it has perhaps passed you by but not the vast buk of the country. Following yet another Labour government. I know, i know, it had nothing to do with Labour. The illegal war, where they duped the coutry intogoing to war and killed tens of thousands, nothing to do with Labour.

You have a family example, so? Sodo i, as do many. I remeber the ratses at 16% (which was the short term peak you chose to highlight) I moved into a family home, renting a room. they were struggling and found a way around the problem.

I remember the fall out from the 70s which made us the leper of europe and took huge pain to get u back on our feet (again).

Sure. What pain. Exactly.. What is the real impact to the population of the last 7 years? A deficit and a slow down of the economy?
Sure I get that, some hardship going on for some people. Levels of poverty are increasing food banks etc. but that is a response to austerity measures introduced by this government and blamed on the previous government. Chosen outcomes rather than consequences.
Not really cataclysmic to individuals , particularly in comparison to other countries over the same period.

Being a leper of Europe? I'm sorry but what was the impact of that? In real terms? To people in the UK?
Yes agreed not good.. Embarrassing, lack of pride in the nation.... Etc.

I appreciate my Mum was unlucky not having anyone to move in with. More fool her eh? Silly mum! Her fault that one. Definitely.
But 1000s of upwardly mobile, southerners!! Homeless. Come on!! Not all of them were at fault were they?
Surely you must agree that was a bad outcome for the country? No?

Fair enough your probably right. After all the Tories are still in power. So you must be right.

 

[Soulman]

Labour has too much baggage from the Blair/Brown years, and the prospect of a Lab/SNP deal was damaging also, I don't think there is anything they could have done.

A good answer
The amount of workers on the sites that have given up on Labour. We have realised that they are not the party for the "working" man. Many feel that they completely miss out the "workers", as the state of our industry, wages etc proved over the 13 years they were in power. Many like me vowed never to vote again for them after 97.

 

[beorhthelm]

The Tories last one was inexcusable and motivated purely for political motives.
Labours decision was in response to the potential impact of the banking sectors recklessness.

you need to look at the effects after the event objectivly. in 97 Clarke was leaving a growing economy about to go into surplus. in 2013 there was still a ~100bn deficit after 3 years of cuts. i think you have taken the 92 recession a bit personally, it affected many of us. that event was the seed of UKIP and the desire of many that Europe wasnt worth the trouble.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Sure. What pain. Exactly.. What is the real impact to the population of the last 7 years? A deficit and a slow down of the economy?
Sure I get that, some hardship going on for some people. Levels of poverty are increasing food banks etc. but that is a response to austerity measures introduced by this government and blamed on the previous government. Chosen outcomes rather than consequences.
Not really cataclysmic to individuals , particularly in comparison to other countries over the same period.

Being a leper of Europe? I'm sorry but what was the impact of that? In real terms? To people in the UK?
Yes agreed not good.. Embarrassing, lack of pride in the nation.... Etc.

I appreciate my Mum was unlucky not having anyone to move in with. More fool her eh? Silly mum! Her fault that one. Definitely.
But 1000s of upwardly mobile, southerners!! Homeless. Come on!! Not all of them were at fault were they?
Surely you must agree that was a bad outcome for the country? No?

Fair enough your probably right. After all the Tories are still in power. So you must be right.

I could go through each one but i think you have your head in the sand on the first, too young for the second and too personally tied up with a family issue to loo bryond yourself on the third. perhaps best to cut short and say the Uk doesnt agree wih your assesment the conservstives are poor at managing the economy and labour did no wrong leading up to the crisis

 

[beorhthelm]

Labour needs to rethink its message, stop divisive them and us class warfare bollox,

the problem as apparent to me is that all too many of the vocal Labour fraternity want the division and class warfare. its a badge of honour to be working class even if living in a middle class world with a career in managment.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

you need to look at the effects after the event objectivly. in 97 Clarke was leaving a growing economy about to go into surplus. in 2013 there was still a ~100bn deficit after 3 years of cuts. i think you have taken the 92 recession a bit personally, it affected many of us. that event was the seed of UKIP and the desire of many that Europe wasnt worth the trouble.

Yes agreed. In true NSC style I have gone into binfest mode.

My original point, personal experience aside, is that Labour did not cause the recession.
There has been an inference perpetuated over the last 5 years, that the deficit is a direct effect of Labour spending.
The inference being that Gordon Brown pis@edit up against the wall on reckless budgets.
This is a lie. He had no choice. He made a call. To bail out the banks.
That was the single most important event in leading up to the situation we are still in. Labour were in charge of the economy, when the sub-prime chaos hit. Not responsible for it at all.

 

[Bozza]

what they proposed on 5 live tonight might possibly be the way forward. to split Scottish Lab from England/Wales Lab, to move Scottish left and English/Welsh to centre and then to have a coalition if electoral maths add up at GE.

I really can't see that working. "We're not the Labour Party, we're actually the Scottish Labour Party and nothing to do with that lot down South. Honest."

I noticed that, last night, when returns were being announced that each candidate from the major parties was announced as being from "The Scottish xxxxxxxx Party" - they've all given themselves a "Scottish" prefix to try some form of differentiation anyway.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I could go through each one but i think you have your head in the sand on the first, too young for the second and too personally tied up with a family issue to loo bryond yourself on the third. perhaps best to cut short and say the Uk doesnt agree wih your assesment the conservstives are poor at managing the economy and labour did no wrong leading up to the crisis

 

[Soulman]

Yes agreed. In true NSC style I have gone into binfest mode.

My original point, personal experience aside, is that Labour did not cause the recession.
There has been an inference perpetuated over the last 5 years, that the deficit is a direct effect of Labour spending.
The inference being that Gordon Brown pis@edit up against the wall on reckless budgets.
This is a lie. He had no choice. He made a call. To bail out the banks.
That was the single most important event in leading up to the situation we are still in. Labour were in charge of the economy, when the sub-prime chaos hit. Not responsible for it at all.

So how do you explain the mess and overspending of the previous Labour governments, was their overspending and mismanagement down to the same excuses.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Dont worry, the will of the people is to give the conservatives another five years. You can always move to Germany

 

[beorhthelm]

My original point, personal experience aside, is that Labour did not cause the recession.
There has been an inference perpetuated over the last 5 years, that the deficit is a direct effect of Labour spending.
The inference being that Gordon Brown pis@edit up against the wall on reckless budgets.
This is a lie. He had no choice. He made a call. To bail out the banks.

its not a lie. he was running a 40Bn deficit in a growing econonmy. and the spending was expected to increase, after all boom and bust was at an end, he could carry on spending, the economy would grow forever... the bailout cost £76bn for the banks, once. the other 100's of billions then and since are due to paying for the expenditure of the state.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Dont worry, the will of the people is to give the conservatives another five years. You can always move to Germany

Happy here thanks. I love being British. It is the greatest nation on earth and I would never live anywhere else.
The will of the people has spoken and I am fortunate enough to be not in the line of fire of the chosen government.

The truly great thing about being British Is tolerance and compassion.
The Tory party do not represent these values. Which is why I will always despise them.