Too Socialist or too Centre Left?

[peterward]

The truly great thing about being British Is tolerance and compassion.
The Tory party do not represent these values. Which is why I will always despise them.

they absolutely do represent tolerance and compassion, obviously not if you read certain press that demonise everything for ulterior mnotives, and that doesnt mean they dont make mistakes.

this is not Thatcher right wing conservatism, its compassionate centre right. If you are responsible it doesnt mean you are no compassionate. It was the the conservatives that introduced equal marriage

The mistake of Labour is to think that your level of compassion is judged by your level of spending (including borrowing).

It is far more compassionate to lift people out of poverty, to provide and incentivise work and to make sure always that the management of the economy is sound and that business creates work. For it truly is the state of the economy that will decide how much can be spent responsibly on public services (and i'm sure the Tories will spend as much as they can, they are not ideological cutters, thats propaganda), how much debt is saddled onto the shoulders of our citizens including kids in taxes, how high unemployment is.

I truly believe that the Tories have changed, (but there are many that at some previous point that decided to hate them and stop ever being objective again) but you cannot solve all your problems or show your level of compassion by rampant unchecked borrowing, that creates more and more debt interest. Irresponsible economic management and rampant debt/borrowing always end in disaster and that disaster always effects the poorest, Rich people don't feel the effects of economic mismanagement, poor people do. Real compassion would try and ensure that we live within our means continually, to stop paying billions in debt interest from previous borrowing. of course cutting benefits to disabled people would be wrong for sure and not compassionate, the aore room supplement (bedroom tax) was/is a mistake, however cutting the benefits bill by getting more into work is common sense and is both responsible and compassionate, cutting some working age benefits at same time as putting up minimum wage and tax threshold, cuts benefits bills and is also common sense. Making the benefits system an easy to choose lifestyle choice for able bodied working people is not compassionate, nor is overseeing huge increases in unemployment levels.

 

[heathgate]

Do you know what I think? Well I will tell you anyway.

In this modern society, talk from Labour of 'fairer society' , 'representing the working man' and 'core socialist values', just doesn't resonate as widely as it used to 40 or more years ago. I don't know if you noticed, but today's working man has sky TV, mobile phones, I pads, I pods, eats in restaurants, holidays abroad, thinks about good schools for his kids, isn't in a trade union, is fashion conscious etc etc..

Today's plumbers, electricians, builders, mechanics earn good money, they have aspirations and expectations, in other words, the mantra of socialism isn't leading them like sheep as it did historically.

Well that's my view anyway.

 

[Hampster Gull]

they absolutely do represent tolerance and compassion, obviously not if you read certain press that demonise everything for ulterior mnotives, and that doesnt mean they dont make mistakes.

this is not Thatcher right wing conservatism, its compassionate centre right. If you are responsible it doesnt mean you are no compassionate. It was the the conservatives that introduced equal marriage

The mistake of Labour is to think that your level of compassion is judged by your level of spending (including borrowing).

It is far more compassionate to lift people out of poverty, to provide and incentivise work and to make sure always that the management of the economy is sound and that business creates work. For it truly is the state of the economy that will decide how much can be spent responsibly on public services (and i'm sure the Tories will spend as much as they can, they are not ideological cutters, thats propaganda), how much debt is saddled onto the shoulders of our citizens including kids in taxes, how high unemployment is.

I truly believe that the Tories have changed, (but there are many that at some previous point that decided to hate them and stop ever being objective again) but you cannot solve all your problems or show your level of compassion by rampant unchecked borrowing, that creates more and more debt interest. Irresponsible economic management and rampant debt/borrowing always end in disaster and that disaster always effects the poorest, Rich people don't feel the effects of economic mismanagement, poor people do. Real compassion would try and ensure that we live within our means continually, to stop paying billions in debt interest from previous borrowing. of course cutting benefits to disabled people would be wrong for sure and not compassionate, the aore room supplement (bedroom tax) was/is a mistake, however cutting the benefits bill by getting more into work is common sense and is both responsible and compassionate, cutting some working age benefits at same time as putting up minimum wage and tax threshold, cuts benefits bills and is also common sense. Making the benefits system an easy to choose lifestyle choice for able bodied working people is not compassionate, nor is overseeing huge increases in unemployment levels.

Good post. Having the right incentive to work to provide for your family and give something back to the community is key. As is the requirement to look after those who at that point cannot look after themselves

 

[Trevor]

Do you know what I think? Well I will tell you anyway.

In this modern society, talk from Labour of 'fairer society' , 'representing the working man' and 'core socialist values', just doesn't resonate as widely as it used to 40 or more years ago. I don't know if you noticed, but today's working man has sky TV, mobile phones, I pads, I pods, eats in restaurants, holidays abroad, thinks about good schools for his kids, isn't in a trade union, is fashion conscious etc etc..

Today's plumbers, electricians, builders, mechanics earn good money, they have aspirations and expectations, in other words, the mantra of socialism isn't leading them like sheep as it did historically.

Well that's my view anyway.

Yes, I think your remarks are well observed. I think that we are more comfortable day-to-day and actually quite coccooned. My worry is that we need a good infrastructure to protect people when then get old or ill etc. but that many people don't see this until they need help themselves

 

[Questions]

That was not a socialist Labour party by any means.

Yet the experts are now all saying that Milliband had taken Labour to far to the left after the reigns of Blair and Brown.
Do you remember 1992 when the voters crapped themselves when Labour said there would almost certainly be a penny increase on tax to go into the NH service and other needy areas and everyone drifted away at the last minute.
No you are right the days of a true socialist government are gone forever mate...............the greedy have seen to that.

 

[ROKERITE]

Yet the experts are now all saying that Milliband had taken Labour to far to the left after the reigns of Blair and Brown.
Do you remember 1992 when the voters crapped themselves when Labour said there would almost certainly be a penny increase on tax to go into the NH service and other needy areas and everyone drifted away at the last minute.
No you are right the days of a true socialist government are gone forever mate...............the greedy have seen to that.

Another bitter bigot who mistakes a desire for freedom and getting the state off your back for greed. The real greedy and selfish are the underclass who will never contribute a thing to this country but expect others to look after them from cradle to grave.

 

[Stato]

Another bitter bigot who mistakes a desire for freedom and getting the state off your back for greed. The real greedy and selfish are the underclass who will never contribute a thing to this country but expect others to look after them from cradle to grave.

I bet you're popular on 'Ready To Go'

 

[BLOCK F]

George is pretty left wing.

Maybe he'll be up for it.

George can afford to be!

 

[BLOCK F]

Happy here thanks. I love being British. It is the greatest nation on earth and I would never live anywhere else.
The will of the people has spoken and I am fortunate enough to be not in the line of fire of the chosen government.

The truly great thing about being British Is tolerance and compassion.
The Tory party do not represent these values. Which is why I will always despise them.

Complete gumph.
By the way,if you are so tolerant and compassionate,why is it that you will always despise The Tory Party?
Thought you tolerant types were meant to be more compassionate towards 'the enemy'.

 

[BLOCK F]

Agree with both points, but also worth adding that Labour was persistently dogged by being unable to shake off the tag that they 'bankrupted the economy' or 'caused the deficit' or similar. Despite the fact that the evidence and consensus opinion among most economists doesn't really support that view (although they did under-regulate the banks under Brown and Blair, and acknowledged that), the public perception that Labour was not economically competent, reinforced by biased media campaigns by the right wing press, was the final nail in the coffin I think.

There were so many nails that could be put into the coffin,not least the fact that Milliband was not PM material, the most leftie leaning agenda for some time, failure to admit to past mistakes, politics of envy and a lack of aspiration, possible influence from a socialist SNP 'supporting Labour in Government'.
Yes,of course, let's blame the media! Nothing to do with the good common sense of the voters, I suppose.

 

[Steve.S]

Another bitter bigot who mistakes a desire for freedom and getting the state off your back for greed. The real greedy and selfish are the underclass who will never contribute a thing to this country but expect others to look after them from cradle to grave.

Do you own Amazon?

 

[Hampster Gull]

Yet the experts are now all saying that Milliband had taken Labour to far to the left after the reigns of Blair and Brown.
Do you remember 1992 when the voters crapped themselves when Labour said there would almost certainly be a penny increase on tax to go into the NH service and other needy areas and everyone drifted away at the last minute.
No you are right the days of a true socialist government are gone forever mate...............the greedy have seen to that.

The implicstion is it was greedy to vote against a 1p tax rise to fund more for the NHS? The NHS has more than doubled its bill to UK PLC since the 1960s from 3,5% towell over 7%. The rise will continue as the population ages but its right we ask for VFM

 

[Hampster Gull]

There were so many nails that could be put into the coffin,not least the fact that Milliband was not PM material, the most leftie leaning agenda for some time, failure to admit to past mistakes, politics of envy and a lack of aspiration, possible influence from a socialist SNP 'supporting Labour in Government'.
Yes,of course, let's blame the media! Nothing to do with the good common sense of the voters, I suppose.

Labour will struggle to get back into power until they taken a long hard look at their party and they learn from previous mistakes and put a clear agenda foward. If the majority f their supporters on here are anything to go by it could be s long time

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Labour will struggle to get back into power until they taken a long hard look at their party and they learn from previous mistakes and put a clear agenda foward. If the majority f their supporters on here are anything to go by it could be s long time

Labour will have to move to the right , they need to offset the "Shy Tory" and "LieTory" vote which all the opinion poll companies completely ****ed up on.

 

[London Irish]

If all the Tories weighing in on this thread believed any of the guff they are saying, they wouldn't be so determined to turn Labour into Tory party lite - you would be confident in letting the British people have a genuine choice.

But every Tory knows they only win by a hysterical press fear and scare campaign, not a genuine debate on policy alternatives.

You know that approach won't always work - and a Labour Party promoting genuine change will be ready for that time

 

[BLOCK F]

If all the Tories weighing in on this thread believed any of the guff they are saying, they wouldn't be so determined to turn Labour into Tory party lite - you would be confident in letting the British people have a genuine choice.

But every Tory knows they only win by a hysterical press fear and scare campaign, not a genuine debate on policy alternatives.

You know that approach won't always work - and a Labour Party promoting genuine change will be ready for that time

Come off it Irish, the Labour Party are surely the champions of fear and scare tactics, telling everyone that the Tories will abolish the NHS, for example.

 

[London Irish]

Come off it Irish, the Labour Party are surely the champions of fear and scare tactics, telling everyone that the Tories will abolish the NHS, for example.

I refer you to the first article the Telegraph posted on Friday at 610am, arguing for the end of the NHS and a U.S. insurance system instead.

Don't say we didn't warn you - it's coming when they have you lot softened up enough

 

[beorhthelm]

I refer you to the first article the Telegraph posted on Friday at 610am, arguing for the end of the NHS and a U.S. insurance system instead.

no it isnt, the public wouldnt stand for it and any party that did so would be unelectable again. they might well privatise a lot, but they wont ever go to the US system, not least because it is inefficient and not a good model (you still need to provide some base level as they do there). you can keep telling people this will happen, but it wont.

 

[jimbob5]

I think Labour lost because of the Blair/Brown legacy, a perceived London Centric leader, the fall out from the Scottish Referendum, losing more voted to UKIP than they gained from the LD ex voters and a lack of clear idea on the economy. In general you need to win the centre ground but you can compensate for being too right wing e.g. by being popular regardless. An example, albeit from the other wing, is Boris Johnson comfortably winning the Mayor gig twice in a comparatively left leaning London.

 

[folkestonesgull]

The issue not mentioned in this thread is the massive collapse of the libdems...in particular key seats that were lib dem were heavily targeted and won by the conservatives. The libdems lost their voice by being part of the coalition, they lost their younger voters because of their actions in the first 2 years and lost many of the central tories because of the threat of the labour SNP coalition.
All of the talk of labour and whether they should be move to the left or centre ignores the fact that labour did not lose a lot of seats to the conservatives, they lost seats to the SNP and the conservatives gained lib dem seats from more central voters. Labour will always have key heartlands. It is the massive reduction in seats of the third party that has given the conservatives gains.
If labour are more and more irrelevant to much of the population, especially in the south of the country then I would expect the lib dems to win far more votes at the next election, particularly as they will be in a position to fight against the government, which they couldn't do as part of it.
I felt that the coalition did help keep the government anchored to the centre, under pressure from ukip and the right of the conservative party. I am concerned that without the coalition and the opposition now in disarray there could be real risk to the environment (fracking, reduced investment in renewable energy, deregulation of legislation), society (with less of a focus on the distribution of wealth) and human rights (in particular the removal of the human rights act) that will cause the people of this country long term harm.
As for labour, I can't see how they will ever be able to gain seats they need in England whilst also gaining the seats they need in Scotland to gain a majority without the conservatives really screwing people over in the next 5 years to unite the population in getting them out as the aim. Much will depend on the economy, which can't continue to be based on a policy inflatted housing bubble for another 5 years...