Too Socialist or too Centre Left?

[Hampster Gull]

Indeed they were, and that's why everyone hates Blair?

Ok,well good luck in your socialist ideal

 

[London Irish]

Ok,well good luck in your socialist ideal

I'm sure that's what they said before the NHS was created. Socialism like that is very popular, crap like privatised railways and letting bankers do what they like, very unpopular

 

[Soulman]

I'm sure that's what they said before the NHS was created. Socialism like that is very popular, crap like privatised railways and letting bankers do what they like, very unpopular

Quote: " letting bankers do what they like, very unpopular ".
Quite, though surely this happened under Labours watch............

 

[London Irish]

Quote: " letting bankers do what they like, very unpopular ".
Quite, though surely this happened under Labours watch............

Under New Labour's watch, backed enthusiastically by the Tory opposition who criticised New Labour for being too hard on the bankers.

This is why we need a Labour party that is different to that Blairite crud - but the media are now united in saying that's what we have to go back to - **** 'em

 

[Hampster Gull]

I'm sure that's what they said before the NHS was created. Socialism like that is very popular, crap like privatised railways and letting bankers do what they like, very unpopular

The NHS isn't owned by socialists. Beveridge, the Liberal minister in the WWII coalition, wrote the Beveridge report which formed the basis of the welfare state introduced post war. It was supported by the conservatives. Labour where the elected party post the war and implimented it and hats off to them but the thanks is wider than Just them

 

[Hampster Gull]

Under New Labour's watch, backed enthusiastically by the Tory opposition who criticised New Labour for being too hard on the bankers.

This is why we need a Labour party that is different to that Blairite crud - but the media are now united in saying that's what we have to go back to - **** 'em

Yes, New Labour, not "proper" Labour. Every party is made up of constituents but i hope that the looney left dont win the latest labour power struggle, we need credible opposition in the years ahead not clowns

 

[Gwylan]

Very good article by straight-talking Tory Peter Oborne about how a return to Blairism/New Labour would be a disaster for Labour. In a nutshell, it argues that this political space no longer exists, another centre ground middleman would attract no support.

That's an excellent piece. I like the way he highlights the fact that the parties who rejected the centre ground did well and the most centrist party of all - the Lib Dems - got wiped out. It also highlights how lucky Blair was: he took over when an economic recovery was underway, the Tory party was at war with itself and he had a succession of uninspiring opponents. He was also lucky that he could ignore the left, he could count on their vote as it had nowhere else to go. It now has SNP, the Greens and PC, while the traditional northern working class is tempted by UKIP. Becoming more Blairite won't help recapture those.

Having said that, I don't think moving to the traditional left is going to help Labour any. There's a long way to pull back in Scotland and it won't shift middle England much. It has to rethink what left and right mean

One thing it must do is to start involving ordinary people again. It should pass a ruling that no new candidates should have done a PPE at Oxford and none should have been a political researcher/SPAD/spin doctor. If the party starts having PPCs who have been plumbers, train drivers, firefighters and engineers it might start reconnecting with voters again. I can't see it taking that step though

 

[Lincoln Imp]

You already have a number of parties who spout that kind of stuff. Why do you want to live in a one-party state and have every choice on the ballot that guff?

Why do you think that (for example) 'public services being run for the users and not the providers" is "guff"?

Anyway, the previous poster was simply listing some of the things he thought Labour should do in order to get re-elected. If the Labour Party feels that Ed Miliband was spot-on in his views of what the public wants then it is perfectly free to offer exactly the same next time round. You would vote for them clearly. The trouble with that approach is that it would take us closer to the one-party state you mention, and the party in question would not be Labour.

 

[looney]

Labour are to in hoc to interest groups. Move one way or the other and they get damaged. wether you think Labours method of coalition building on atributes rather than principles is right or wrong it is becoming obsolete.

 

[Soulman]

Surely Ed Balls losing his seat in Leeds.....a Yorkshire city, up north, strong Labour country........to the Tories, should set alarm bells ringing.
But no, the vitriol, the excuses, the scaremongering, the bitterness on here, knows no bounds.
Like many, a "working" class bloke completely let down by the party laughingly meant to represent the working class.
That ship sailed after 1997.......and the voter did not forget.

 

[London Irish]

The NHS isn't owned by socialists. Beveridge, the Liberal minister in the WWII coalition, wrote the Beveridge report which formed the basis of the welfare state introduced post war. It was supported by the conservatives. Labour where the elected party post the war and implimented it and hats off to them but the thanks is wider than Just them

You've just explained what we have to do - implement socialist ideas like the NHS so well that even Tories don't dare opposite it openly, but just get their press to run continual trashing campaigns against aspects of it.

Defending the NHS will be the main work of the Labour opposition over the next 5 years

 

[London Irish]

Why do you think that (for example) 'public services being run for the users and not the providers" is "guff"?

Because as I explained a few posts back, as with most elitist propaganda, it's "code" for something else - which is smash up unions, never give nurses a pay rise, close fire stations etc etc - all the things the British public would never vote for so lying Orwellian language has to be used instead.

 

[Hampster Gull]

You've just explained what we have to do - implement socialist ideas like the NHS so well that even Tories don't dare opposite it openly, but just get their press to run continual trashing campaigns against aspects of it.

Defending the NHS will be the main work of the Labour opposition over the next 5 years

The reality of life is things arent black and white, its all shades of grey. I know Labour wants to position itself as the only one who cares about the NHS but that is simply not true. People saw through that in this election. But sure, keep the PR going

 

[Hampster Gull]

Because as I explained a few posts back, as with most elitist propaganda, it's "code" for something else - which is smash up unions, never give nurses a pay rise, close fire stations etc etc - all the things the British public would never vote for so lying Orwellian language has to be used instead.

Ok, my views make clearer. I have little time for the dogma that says the only way to provide a national health service via the state. The NHS is great and should form the basis of our service but the fact it is the NHS doesn't mean it has the right to anything or indeed everythng. The NHS doesnt magic up its own funding, it is funded by taxpayers which means it is funded by hard working people, to coin a phrase. We need to ensure th user, our community get the best serive and we need to ensure our community gets best value.

I have no in principle objection to others supporting a national health service if it adds to it. Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland all adopt a different model to us. Indeed previuos Labour governments have had no problem either. I dont accept a narrow minded no change approach to any service. But, again, the NHS should be the core of any service given where we are. There you go

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Because as I explained a few posts back, as with most elitist propaganda, it's "code" for something else - which is smash up unions, never give nurses a pay rise, close fire stations etc etc - all the things the British public would never vote for so lying Orwellian language has to be used instead.

Let me be certain I've got this right. Poster comes up with a perfectly reasonable suggestion ("public services being run for users rather than providers"). You announce that it is code for something else and then attack that something else on the basis that it is a lying Orwellianism.

That's the same as you saying you would quite like a more equal distribution of wealth and me announcing that what you actually mean is that you would like a return to the Stalinist pogroms of the early 20th century and are, therefore, an apologist for mass murder.

If you disagree with a point someone makes then attack that point. Don't invent a point the person didn't make and attack that. Any fourth form debating society dimwit could do that in his tea break.

PS: the original poster's actual point - as against the one you invented - seems to me, an ordinary person who left a particular branch of the public service after 17 extraordinarily lucrative years because it was ABSOLUTELY an organisation run largely for the benefit of its staff and not its users, to be a perfectly reasonable ambition. And I am not saying that every public servant is a backslider, although I expect you will tell me that I am.

 

[Hampster Gull]

David Miliband fairly clear today, red ed took the party too far to the left and forgot about aspiration. David gets it

 

[Questions]

Another bitter bigot who mistakes a desire for freedom and getting the state off your back for greed. The real greedy and selfish are the underclass who will never contribute a thing to this country but expect others to look after them from cradle to grave.

Yeah like the elderly the disabled (there are plenty on here who know this) and the low paid who struggle on through. Greedy and selfish..........you talk shit mate. The safety net catches scroungers as well..........maybe you can work out how to legsliate against that. No government ever has.

 

[London Irish]

The reality of life is things arent black and white, its all shades of grey. I know Labour wants to position itself as the only one who cares about the NHS but that is simply not true. People saw through that in this election. But sure, keep the PR going

Nope Labour won the debate over the NHS hands down but lost a bigger one with the Tories who scared people into believeing 50 Scottish people would be running their lives

 

[London Irish]

Let me be certain I've got this right. Poster comes up with a perfectly reasonable suggestion ("public services being run for users rather than providers"). You announce that it is code for something else and then attack that something else on the basis that it is a lying Orwellianism.

That's the same as you saying you would quite like a more equal distribution of wealth and me announcing that what you actually mean is that you would like a return to the Stalinist pogroms of the early 20th century and are, therefore, an apologist for mass murder

Well, you could say that if you wanted to be ridiculous. As far as I'm aware, there is no imminent threat of Uncle Joe and his followers affecting things much in jolly old Blightly, outside if a paranoid fantasy even the Express would reject as a bit much.

But all the things I listed ARE actually happening. Unions are being smashed up, only today the government announced more curbs on free trade unions FACT. Nobody getting a pay rise, let alone nurses? We know this is true, are you going to deny it? Wage growth is at depression levels despite boardroom pay rocketing, but that's the disgusting inequality the Tories champion. Public services being attacked including fire station closures? Are you going to deny that too cos I could waste both our time and post loads of links but we both know that's not necessary because it's common knowledge.

So yes, you are guilty of Orwellian levels of distortion - all the things I listed are actually happening, and you can only counter with a bizarre fantasy.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Nope Labour won the debate over the NHS hands down but lost a bigger one with the Tories who scared people into believeing 50 Scottish people would be running their lives

If that makes you feel better, sure, go for it.

Labour only lot because people were scared about Scotland. I suggest your party should move more to the left, i think there are tons of votes there for you, you will win hands down.

Real shame that the first three labour candidates seem to be positioning themselves to the centre but don't worry lots of time still left.