[Albion] Thomas Tuchel **Appointed England Manager 15/10/24**

[Herr Tubthumper]

I wouldn't mind betting that from a Dutch point of view it has everything to do with WW2

Plays a part but the 1974 World Cup is where it properly started.

 

[Wozza]

I wouldn't mind betting that from a Dutch point of view it has everything to do with WW2

I had a meeting with Dutch guys in our office once. They were in their 50s, I guess.

A fire alarm sounded.

And they said: "Uh-oh, it's ze Germans!!!"

Couldn't believe it!

 

[Randy McNob]

You highlighted that 2010 tournament. Whilst the exit against Germany wasn't good, we didn't lose a group game in it and qualified.

Compare that with the previous 2008 tournament with an English manager in McClaren in which we weren't even good enough to get there.

And then compare that shambles with the previous 3 tournaments in which we reached the QF stage under a foreign manager in Eriksson.

In the original post, I mentioned that I'd excluded caretaker managers and one hit wonders like Allardyce as it wouldn't be a fair comparison with one game managers or one game players like Nugent and Jeffers. As for bringing boxing into the conversation, I'm not sure that's helpful at all as there are so many other factors involved like weight categories, etc.

I'm no more a stats man than is needed to argue against what I consider to be falsehoods based on subjective opinions rather than data.

So having shown you the evidence that the only 2 previous foreign managers in Eriksson and Capello were much more successful both with tournament progression and win percentage respectively during those 2 decades than their English equivalent, would you consider revising your belief that the foreign manager experiment was a failure?

Or will you continue to consciously choose an alternate reality that doesn't allow itself to be troubled with the inconvenience of objective data?

If it's the latter, I'll admit there's probably very little else I can do to convince you.

Nice try, however, allow me to show you the errors in your judgement. A foreign boss has to be BETTER than an Englishman otherwise what would be the point? If the foreign boss only acheives the same or worse than the best available English boss then why get a foreign boss?

Are we saying from 2002-2006, 3 quarter finals is the absolute optimum we could have expected and the best English boss could not have done better even with all those players available? and in 2010, under an English boss we would have done even worse than the total shambles under Crapello?

So if they were no better than they were failures, and before you throw Maclaren at me, he isn't the yardstick of English coaches, he was just an assitant, a No 2, a cone man. The real / general issue though is the FA are not good at hiring managers and have, in the main, got it horribly wrong more often than not and Tuchel is no exception. I'll put good money on him doing no better than Southgate

 

[hart's shirt]

Nice try, however, allow me to show you the errors in your judgement. A foreign boss has to be BETTER than an Englishman otherwise what would be the point? If the foreign boss only acheives the same or worse than the best available English boss then why get a foreign boss?

Are we saying from 2002-2006, 3 quarter finals is the absolute optimum we could have expected and the best English boss could not have done better even with all those players available? and in 2010, under an English boss we would have done even worse than the total shambles under Crapello?

So if they were no better than they were failures, and before you throw Maclaren at me, he isn't the yardstick of English coaches, he was just an assitant, a No 2, a cone man. The real / general issue though is the FA are not good at hiring managers and have, in the main, got it horribly wrong more often than not and Tuchel is no exception. I'll put good money on him doing no better than Southgate

By avoiding answering my question, you may inadvertently have answered it. But I digress.

Let's consider 2 things you mentioned in the last couple of posts.
1. "I am saying I only consider performances at tournaments disregarding qualifying."
2. "A foreign boss has to be BETTER than an Englishman otherwise what would be the point? If the foreign boss only acheives the same or worse than the best available English boss then why get a foreign boss?"

1. By doing this, you'd ignore the vast majority of games that are tournament qualifiers (e.g. Germany 1 England 5) or friendlies. It's all about the tournaments then? Ok... *rubs hands together*
2. Both of the foreign managers England had outperformed or equalled their English counterparts in the 10 tournaments from 1998-2016 inclusive. They were BETTER. The only exception being Hodgson's 2012 Euro QF when directly compared with Capello's 2010 WC R16. But also under Hodgson, England didn't win a game in WC2014, finished bottom of the group and couldn't even beat Costa Rica. And then there was Iceland in Euro 2016. The horror...

All of the above is tournament football - the only thing that you'd consider.

As for "could we have done any better...", well, that's completely hypothetical and speculative. Looking at the performances from English managers in those 2 decades, it's unlikely we would have done better as every English manager that was employed had worse results.

You may want to think of McClaren as an assistant, a No 2, a cone man. We all wish he'd have been that and much less. But the FA employed him as England national football team manager from 2006-2007. So sorry, you don't have the liberty of pretending he didn't happen just because he was lacking. He still counts and thus can and should be fairly compared with Capello and Eriksson as well as the other English managers.

 

[Brovion]

If you want. One senior player’s entitlement is enough for me.

Hmmm. I would suggest you were just looking for an excuse.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Hmmm. I would suggest you were just looking for an excuse.

I don’t consider myself as someone who needs an excuse to not do something. I also know a number of others, who were England regulars home and abroad, who started to drift away during the WAG infested “Golden Generation” era. Numerous players with pumped up egos, Ferdinand’s entitlement, “The Big Man is back in town” the bragging about salaries within the camp etc. Personally I found this a turn off. It wasn’t just England though, it was football in general. Yes I follow Brighton but don’t have much interest in football beyond this.

I do enjoy the international tournaments though, I enjoy them pretty much as a neutral, or latch onto a nation which excites me somehow, these days.

 

[Man of Harveys]

I had a meeting with Dutch guys in our office once. They were in their 50s, I guess.

A fire alarm sounded.

And they said: "Uh-oh, it's ze Germans!!!"

Couldn't believe it!

Did a surprisingly high percentage of them jump up to let them in? Then do everything they asked them to?

#topicalhumour

 

[Brovion]

I don’t consider myself as someone who needs an excuse to not do something. I also know a number of others, who were England regulars home and abroad, who started to drift away during the WAG infested “Golden Generation” era. Numerous players with pumped up egos, Ferdinand’s entitlement, “The Big Man is back in town” the bragging about salaries within the camp etc. Personally I found this a turn off. It wasn’t just England though, it was football in general. Yes I follow Brighton but don’t have much interest in football beyond this.

I do enjoy the international tournaments though, I enjoy them pretty much as a neutral, or latch onto a nation which excites me somehow, these days.

Fair enough, but that wasn't just one person pissing you off though was it? It was the whole shebang. FWIW I agree with you; the sense of entitlement, the "we invented the game and we won the war" and "we've got the best players it's just that the manager's shit" attitudes piss me off as well. (The last one especially. Talk about insular).

But it's international football and we can't pick and choose. I'm as disillusioned as anybody, but we soldier on. More in hope than expectation.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Fair enough, but that wasn't just one person pissing you off though was it? It was the whole shebang. FWIW I agree with you; the sense of entitlement, the "we invented the game and we won the war" and "we've got the best players it's just that the manager's shit" attitudes piss me off as well. (The last one especially. Talk about insular).

But it's international football and we can't pick and choose. I'm as disillusioned as anybody, but we soldier on. More in hope than expectation.

That said, I did still take the opportunity to go to see England in Moscow and Baku...both memorable trips.

 

[Wozza]

Obviously Tuchel is the highly topical story here, but it's mad seeing something a Brighton manager says as the hook for a back-page splash.

 

[Swegulls]

I think TT will do fine. He know most of the players and I think he already have a good idea who he wants in his 11. Hope he settle it quick and give them a confidence boost. He's not got any problems to take difficult decisions and I think its up to the rest to just take it or leave it. After all a medal from a WC isn't something you get that easy. You might not play a minute but you will, and should be, quite proud anyway if that's the case. Tough shit for some big egos there, but it's sports at its highest level. A two year (or is it 18 months?) contract is clever, it kind of states that its now or never. And I guess 18 months is about the time the players will cope with him!

 

[Durlston]

So if they were no better than they were failures, and before you throw Maclaren at me, he isn't the yardstick of English coaches, he was just an assitant, a No 2, a cone man. The real / general issue though is the FA are not good at hiring managers and have, in the main, got it horribly wrong more often than not and Tuchel is no exception. I'll put good money on him doing no better than Southgate.

What, like reaching consecutive European Championship finals and being beaten by the skin of our teeth in both of them?

 

[Randy McNob]

By avoiding answering my question, you may inadvertently have answered it. But I digress.

Let's consider 2 things you mentioned in the last couple of posts.
1. "I am saying I only consider performances at tournaments disregarding qualifying."
2. "A foreign boss has to be BETTER than an Englishman otherwise what would be the point? If the foreign boss only acheives the same or worse than the best available English boss then why get a foreign boss?"

1. By doing this, you'd ignore the vast majority of games that are tournament qualifiers (e.g. Germany 1 England 5) or friendlies. It's all about the tournaments then? Ok... *rubs hands together*
2. Both of the foreign managers England had outperformed or equalled their English counterparts in the 10 tournaments from 1998-2016 inclusive. They were BETTER. The only exception being Hodgson's 2012 Euro QF when directly compared with Capello's 2010 WC R16. But also under Hodgson, England didn't win a game in WC2014, finished bottom of the group and couldn't even beat Costa Rica. And then there was Iceland in Euro 2016. The horror...

All of the above is tournament football - the only thing that you'd consider.

As for "could we have done any better...", well, that's completely hypothetical and speculative. Looking at the performances from English managers in those 2 decades, it's unlikely we would have done better as every English manager that was employed had worse results.

You may want to think of McClaren as an assistant, a No 2, a cone man. We all wish he'd have been that and much less. But the FA employed him as England national football team manager from 2006-2007. So sorry, you don't have the liberty of pretending he didn't happen just because he was lacking. He still counts and thus can and should be fairly compared with Capello and Eriksson as well as the other English managers.

The 1-5 v Germany, whilst an individual brilliant result, can only be heralded if it was the springboard for further success, but it wasn't, it was a freak result in an otherwise drab campaign. We needed an injury time Beckham goal to draw against Greece and rely on Finland stopping Germany in a group containing Finland Greece and Albania. Even so, the Germans qualified anyway and reached the final while we whimpered out in the quarters (as per).

On the point of comparing against successors and predecessors, a better measurement, and case in point, would be whether Eriksson fared better than the English alternatives when hired. So that would take into account Available English managers during the 2001-2002 season. The FA would have you believe there was a dearth of English managers available so had to search beyond these shores, however, 10 of the 20 Premier League clubs were managed by Englishmen...has that ever been higher? Not one of the 10 bosses could have done OK as England manager despite all of them excelling at highest level of club football within this country? really?

Let's consider Crapello's appointment in 2007. At the time 8 of the 20 prem managers were English, 9 if you include Martin O'Neill, and ironically, none other than Gareth Southgate. So for the FA to say there were no Englishmen capable of leading England at that time is simply not true, since one of them has gone to do precisely that and got us to 2 Euro finals and 1 WC semi.

In conclusion, we do not need to go outside these shores to find a suitable manager, there are plenty of suitable English candidates, foreign mangers have not improved our fortunes at all and really, it's a simple case that the FA are clueless and have not learnt from their mistakes.

Tuchel will be a hat trick of failures, unless he wins the world cup

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Ah yes, the old 'Southgate is just lucky' chestnut, I beg to differ. Southgate's cautious tactics, whilst not pretty, ensured we won our group and hence, avoided bigger nation i.e. Germany, in the 2nd round = good management. Compare and contrast - Crapello 2010, despite having the EASYest group imaginable, still finished 2nd (behind USA), as a consequence drew Germany, and got thumped = bad management.

And he won the square route of f*** all as his tactical approach was not to win games, it was just not to lose. That approach is never going to win you trophies unless you are very very lucky .. which he wasn’t.

 

[kevo]

Howe wasn't approached by the FA for an interview, which seems a bit bizarre. They did interview some English candidates though, so I'm guessing Potter was among them - and rejected.

 

[Randy McNob]

And he won the square route of f*** all as his tactical approach was not to win games, it was just not to lose. That approach is never going to win you trophies unless you are very very lucky .. which he wasn’t.

I thought he was lucky? i'm confused

Anyway, contradictions aside, I believe those tactics have worked for Italy, I don't see their fans complaining

 

[Randy McNob]

The FA had no intention of hiring an English manager...

 

[jcdenton08]

The FA had no intention of hiring an English manager...

What they said was they wanted a top coach, with Premier League and/or top level experience, successful at winning trophies, with good experience particularly in knock-out competitions.

Pretty much rules out English head coaches, then. They also had to be unemployed as England weren’t going to buy anyone out, and it’s really only Howe anyway as an English head coach in a top club. And even that’s iffy as he’s never won anything of note.

The truth of the matter is there aren’t any top English/British coaches around.

 

[kojak]

I don’t consider myself as someone who needs an excuse to not do something. I also know a number of others, who were England regulars home and abroad, who started to drift away during the WAG infested “Golden Generation” era. Numerous players with pumped up egos, Ferdinand’s entitlement, “The Big Man is back in town” the bragging about salaries within the camp etc. Personally I found this a turn off. It wasn’t just England though, it was football in general. Yes I follow Brighton but don’t have much interest in football beyond this.

I do enjoy the international tournaments though, I enjoy them pretty much as a neutral, or latch onto a nation which excites me somehow, these days.

I think most of us are at this stage

The fact Brighton happen to be a really good side and playing in the top league at the moment
We're tolerating all this shit

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I thought he was lucky? i'm confused

Anyway, contradictions aside, I believe those tactics have worked for Italy, I don't see their fans complaining

Having been working with Italians (as well as Spanish and a Germans) during the Euro’s they thought Southgate was a clueless . The Italian contingent still can’t believe England lost! The Italian side was in their opinion a joke yet Southgate gave them the Euro’s On a plate.

if Southgate fell into a barrel of tits he’d come out sucking his thumb.