[Albion] Thomas Tuchel **Appointed England Manager 15/10/24**

[A1X]

 

[Randy McNob]

Nail.........head..........agree with every word

 

[hart's shirt]

The 1-5 v Germany, whilst an individual brilliant result, can only be heralded if it was the springboard for further success, but it wasn't, it was a freak result in an otherwise drab campaign. We needed an injury time Beckham goal to draw against Greece and rely on Finland stopping Germany in a group containing Finland Greece and Albania. Even so, the Germans qualified anyway and reached the final while we whimpered out in the quarters (as per).

On the point of comparing against successors and predecessors, a better measurement, and case in point, would be whether Eriksson fared better than the English alternatives when hired. So that would take into account Available English managers during the 2001-2002 season. The FA would have you believe there was a dearth of English managers available so had to search beyond these shores, however, 10 of the 20 Premier League clubs were managed by Englishmen...has that ever been higher? Not one of the 10 bosses could have done OK as England manager despite all of them excelling at highest level of club football within this country? really?

Let's consider Crapello's appointment in 2007. At the time 8 of the 20 prem managers were English, 9 if you include Martin O'Neill, and ironically, none other than Gareth Southgate. So for the FA to say there were no Englishmen capable of leading England at that time is simply not true, since one of them has gone to do precisely that and got us to 2 Euro finals and 1 WC semi.

In conclusion, we do not need to go outside these shores to find a suitable manager, there are plenty of suitable English candidates, foreign mangers have not improved our fortunes at all and really, it's a simple case that the FA are clueless and have not learnt from their mistakes.

Tuchel will be a hat trick of failures, unless he wins the world cup

I thought we weren’t considering qualifiers, just tournament matches. You can’t have it both ways here. But seeing as you’ve gone there, Eriksson turned around the qualification campaign and secured us automatic qualification over the eventual finalists and a German side that went into the tournament seeded higher than England. As for “whimpered out” in the QF, we lost by the odd goal to the eventual winners, an outstanding free-scoring Brazil side that scored 11 in the 3 group matches and only conceded 1 in all 4 of the knockout games. Who was that against? Eriksson’s England.

Regarding the choice of England manager when Eriksson took over, the simple answer is that you’re continuing to speculate about hypothetical possibilities. That’s neither scientific nor analytic - it’s just plain conjecture, just your opinion that’s not grounded in any evidence. But I’ll play along and let’s look at some of these alternative English managerial options that you think could’ve done a better job than Eriksson.

Before considering the wealth of English managerial talent available, it’s probably worth mentioning in passing the major clubs Eriksson managed and his domestic and European achievements prior to England

Gothenburg - treble of league, cup and UEFA Cup
Benfica (1st spell) - league, cup and UEFA Cup Finalist
Roma - cup
Fiorentina
Benfica (2nd spell) - league and European Cup Finalists
Sampdoria - cup
Lazio.- league, cup, Cup Winners Cup, UEFA Super Cup

Now that we’ve seen what the English managers were up against, let’s see who those top flight options were. You claim that “all of them excelling at highest level of club football within this country.” Riiight.

Firstly, we should discount those that had previously managed England who wouldn’t have been in contention such as Bobby Robson, Peter Taylor, Graham Taylor and Glenn Hoddle.

So which of the plethora of English managerial supreme talents were left that you believe would’ve been better qualified than Eriksson?

Sam Allardyce, Alan Curbishley, Jim Smith, Colin Todd, John Gregory, Dave Bassett, Micky Adams, Bryan Robson, Steve McClaren, Peter Reid, Stuart Gray and Glenn Roeder.

Tell me which of those English managers you would have picked over Eriksson on achievement alone without bringing nationality into it, and why.
I’m as interested in your thought process here as much as your selection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_FA_Premier_League

As for 2007, the fact you’ve even mentioned Southgate here as an English alternative to the elite manager of Capello at that time is amusing and astonishing in equal measure. The same Southgate that took Middlesborough to the heady heights of 13th that season? The same Southgate that delivered relegation in 19th a season later? You’d have chosen him then?

The other English options are worth listing for the accompanying NSC laughter soundtrack alone:

Gary Megson, Paul Jewell, Roy Hodgson, Harry Redknapp, Steve Coppell, Alan Curbishley, Steve Bruce, Nigel Pearson, Stuart Pearce, Sammy Lee, Chris Hutchings, Lawrie Sanchez and Sam Allardyce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Premier_League

Finally, you’ve said that “Tuchel will be a hat trick of failures, unless he wins the world cup.”
Are you saying that any manager who doesn’t win the World Cup is a failure? Or is that ‘failure' tag just reserved for the foreigners?

If it’s the former, then Southgate along with Bobby Robson and Walter Winterbottom are the biggest failures that England have ever had as managers as they each had 4 attempts to win a tournament and failed to deliver victory in any of them. That’s worse than Eriksson’s 3 attempts and 4 times worse than Capello. With that line of thinking, the only English manager who succeeded was Ramsey in 1966, but he failed 5 other times.

If it’s the latter, then you’re judging managers inconsistently and prejudicially with different expectations according to their nationalities. That’s neither a credible position to hold nor a desirable place to be.

I don’t agree with your binary 'tournament success is everything' position. There's much more to it than that. As much as I disliked Southgate’s style of football with every ounce of my attacking and entertaining purist being, I wouldn't view him as a failure despite having 4 tries and coming up short each time. So like Eriksson and Capello before him, Tuchel won’t be any more of a failure if he comes up short in bringing home a tournament win in his one attempt than Southgate was in his four.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I thought we weren’t considering qualifiers, just tournament matches. You can’t have it both ways here. But seeing as you’ve gone there, Eriksson turned around the qualification campaign and secured us automatic qualification over the eventual finalists and a German side that went into the tournament seeded higher than England. As for “whimpered out” in the QF, we lost to the eventual winners, an outstanding free-scoring Brazil side that scored 11 in the 3 group matches and only conceded 1 in all 4 of the knockout games. Who was that against? Eriksson’s England.

Regarding the choice of England manager when Eriksson took over, the simple answer is that you’re continuing to speculate about hypothetical possibilities. That’s neither scientific nor analytic - it’s just plain conjecture, just your opinion that’s not grounded in any evidence. But I’ll play along and let’s look at some of these alternative English managerial options that you think could’ve done a better job than Eriksson.

Before considering the wealth of English managerial talent available, it’s probably worth mentioning in passing the major clubs Eriksson managed and his domestic and European achievements prior to England

Gothenburg - treble of league, cup and UEFA Cup
Benfica (1st spell) - league, cup and UEFA Cup Finalist
Roma - cup
Fiorentina
Benfica (2nd spell) - league and European Cup Finalists
Sampdoria - cup
Lazio.- league, cup, Cup Winners Cup, UEFA Super Cup

Now that we’ve seen what the English managers were up against, let’s see who those top flight options were. You claim that “all of them excelling at highest level of club football within this country.” Riiight.

Firstly, we should discount those that had previously managed England who wouldn’t have been in contention such as Bobby Robson, Peter Taylor, Graham Taylor and Glenn Hoddle.

So which of the plethora of English managerial supreme talents were left that you believe would’ve been better qualified than Eriksson?

Sam Allardyce, Alan Curbishley, Jim Smith, Colin Todd, John Gregory, Dave Bassett, Micky Adams, Bryan Robson, Steve McClaren, Peter Reid, Stuart Gray and Glenn Roeder.

Tell me which of those English managers you would have picked over Eriksson on achievement alone without bringing nationality into it, and why.
I’m as interested in your thought process here as much as your selection.

As for 2007, the fact you’ve even mentioned Southgate here as an English alternative to the elite manager of Capello at that time is amusing and astonishing in equal measure. The same Southgate that took Middlesborough to the heady heights of 13th that season? The same Southgate that delivered relegation in 19th a season later? You’d have chosen him then?

The other English options are worth listing for the accompanying NSC laughter soundtrack alone:

Gary Megson, Paul Jewell, Roy Hodgson, Harry Redknapp, Steve Coppell, Alan Curbishley, Steve Bruce, Nigel Pearson, Stuart Pearce, Sammy Lee, Chris Hutchings, Lawrie Sanchez and Sam Allardyce.

Finally, you’ve said that “Tuchel will be a hat trick of failures, unless he wins the world cup.”
Are you saying that any manager who doesn’t win the World Cup is a failure? Or is that ‘failure' tag just reserved for the foreigners?

If it’s the former, then Southgate along with Bobby Robson and Walter Winterbottom are the biggest failures that England have ever had as managers as they each had 4 attempts to win a tournament and failed to deliver victory in any of them. That’s worse than Eriksson’s 3 attempts and 4 times worse than Capello. With that line of thinking, the only English manager who succeeded was Ramsey in 1966, but he failed 5 other times.

If it’s the latter, then you’re judging managers inconsistently with different expectations according to their nationalities. That’s neither a credible position to hold nor a desirable place to be.

I don’t agree with your binary 'tournament success is everything' position. There's much more to it than that. As much as I disliked Southgate’s style of football with every ounce of my attacking and entertaining purist being, I wouldn't view him as a failure despite having 4 tries and coming up short each time. So like Eriksson and Capello before him, Tuchel won’t be any more of a failure if he comes up short in bringing home a tournament win in his one attempt than Southgate was in his four.

looking at the selection of the English managers available … I think i’d have been in with a chance. That is a who’s who of what was wrong with English football … a horrific list of incompetence and anti football.

The thing that needs to be remembered is that the list above were responsible for the style of players available for whoever was England manager at the time.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Nail.........head..........agree with every word

Come on Gareth, give it a rest. You failed …

 

[Blues Guitarist]

What, like reaching consecutive European Championship finals and being beaten by the skin of our teeth in both of them?

Since 1966 Germany, Spain, Italy and France have all won at least 4 WC or Euros. So losing a couple of finals doesn't compare very well. (But I'm Scottish, so I don't really have a leg to stand on.)

 

[Motogull]

Pascal will be the next. Can't wait, but I might be brown by then.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Can't believe the outcry over this

Howe who was the front runner seemingly didn't want it

Carsley said he didn't want it and isn't proven

Potter has question marks over him after Chelsea

Not many options out there, people actually suggesting Lampard as an option FFS

 

[herecomesaregular]

I thought we weren’t considering qualifiers, just tournament matches. You can’t have it both ways here. But seeing as you’ve gone there, Eriksson turned around the qualification campaign and secured us automatic qualification over the eventual finalists and a German side that went into the tournament seeded higher than England. As for “whimpered out” in the QF, we lost by the odd goal to the eventual winners, an outstanding free-scoring Brazil side that scored 11 in the 3 group matches and only conceded 1 in all 4 of the knockout games. Who was that against? Eriksson’s England.

Regarding the choice of England manager when Eriksson took over, the simple answer is that you’re continuing to speculate about hypothetical possibilities. That’s neither scientific nor analytic - it’s just plain conjecture, just your opinion that’s not grounded in any evidence. But I’ll play along and let’s look at some of these alternative English managerial options that you think could’ve done a better job than Eriksson.

Before considering the wealth of English managerial talent available, it’s probably worth mentioning in passing the major clubs Eriksson managed and his domestic and European achievements prior to England

Gothenburg - treble of league, cup and UEFA Cup
Benfica (1st spell) - league, cup and UEFA Cup Finalist
Roma - cup
Fiorentina
Benfica (2nd spell) - league and European Cup Finalists
Sampdoria - cup
Lazio.- league, cup, Cup Winners Cup, UEFA Super Cup

Now that we’ve seen what the English managers were up against, let’s see who those top flight options were. You claim that “all of them excelling at highest level of club football within this country.” Riiight.

Firstly, we should discount those that had previously managed England who wouldn’t have been in contention such as Bobby Robson, Peter Taylor, Graham Taylor and Glenn Hoddle.

So which of the plethora of English managerial supreme talents were left that you believe would’ve been better qualified than Eriksson?

Sam Allardyce, Alan Curbishley, Jim Smith, Colin Todd, John Gregory, Dave Bassett, Micky Adams, Bryan Robson, Steve McClaren, Peter Reid, Stuart Gray and Glenn Roeder.

Tell me which of those English managers you would have picked over Eriksson on achievement alone without bringing nationality into it, and why.
I’m as interested in your thought process here as much as your selection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_FA_Premier_League

As for 2007, the fact you’ve even mentioned Southgate here as an English alternative to the elite manager of Capello at that time is amusing and astonishing in equal measure. The same Southgate that took Middlesborough to the heady heights of 13th that season? The same Southgate that delivered relegation in 19th a season later? You’d have chosen him then?

The other English options are worth listing for the accompanying NSC laughter soundtrack alone:

Gary Megson, Paul Jewell, Roy Hodgson, Harry Redknapp, Steve Coppell, Alan Curbishley, Steve Bruce, Nigel Pearson, Stuart Pearce, Sammy Lee, Chris Hutchings, Lawrie Sanchez and Sam Allardyce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Premier_League

Finally, you’ve said that “Tuchel will be a hat trick of failures, unless he wins the world cup.”
Are you saying that any manager who doesn’t win the World Cup is a failure? Or is that ‘failure' tag just reserved for the foreigners?

If it’s the former, then Southgate along with Bobby Robson and Walter Winterbottom are the biggest failures that England have ever had as managers as they each had 4 attempts to win a tournament and failed to deliver victory in any of them. That’s worse than Eriksson’s 3 attempts and 4 times worse than Capello. With that line of thinking, the only English manager who succeeded was Ramsey in 1966, but he failed 5 other times.

If it’s the latter, then you’re judging managers inconsistently and prejudicially with different expectations according to their nationalities. That’s neither a credible position to hold nor a desirable place to be.

I don’t agree with your binary 'tournament success is everything' position. There's much more to it than that. As much as I disliked Southgate’s style of football with every ounce of my attacking and entertaining purist being, I wouldn't view him as a failure despite having 4 tries and coming up short each time. So like Eriksson and Capello before him, Tuchel won’t be any more of a failure if he comes up short in bringing home a tournament win in his one attempt than Southgate was in his four.

Sometimes it truly amazes me the amount of effort people put in to discount one person's opinion on the internet, someone they have never met!

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I thought he was lucky? i'm confused

Anyway, contradictions aside, I believe those tactics have worked for Italy, I don't see their fans complaining

Italy have the defenders for that set up England didn't.

Italy had top class defenders who would sit back and defender for their lives without even a hint of a mistake.

 

[tstanbur]

Can't believe the outcry over this

Howe who was the front runner seemingly didn't want it

Carsley said he didn't want it and isn't proven

Potter has question marks over him after Chelsea

Not many options out there, people actually suggesting Lampard as an option FFS

As per the video posted above, Howe wasn’t even spoken to.

 

[hart's shirt]

Sometimes it truly amazes me the amount of effort people put in to discount one person's opinion on the internet, someone they have never met!

You're quite right. But that's the beauty of different personalities on a football message board. You're going to get plenty of varying approaches.

I've set out my position with objective data and logic. @Randy McNob still has the burden of proof both to show that an English manager would've been a better fit in either 2001 or 2007 by naming a name and arguing his case on achievement, and also to explain how he views failure. To date, he hasn't done either.

Let's see who and what he comes up with, if indeed he does.

 

[Randy McNob]

Sometimes it truly amazes me the amount of effort people put in to discount one person's opinion on the internet, someone they have never met!

Thanks, I don't usually the recognition my input deserves but it's nice to know some people notice

 

[Professor Plum]

You're quite right. But that's the beauty of different personalities on a football message board. You're going to get plenty of varying approaches.

I've set out my position with objective data and logic. @Randy McNob still has the burden of proof both to show that an English manager would've been a better fit in either 2001 or 2007 by naming a name and arguing his case on achievement, and also to explain how he views failure. To date, he hasn't done either.

Let's see who and what he comes up with, if indeed he does.

For me, it’s not a matter of whether Eriksson, Capello, or Tuchel are/were better coaches than the available English ones. They almost certainly are/were. And it certainly doesn’t matter that Tuchel is German. I love Germany, and like nearly all Germans I meet.

My position is that, certainly at the higher levels of football, international competition is all about comparing what your country can produce against what another country can produce. For me, this means players and lead coaches. If we don’t have better coaches in England than are found in Germany and Spain, we should be asking why that is. In fact we should have been asking that back in 2001 when we appointed Sven, and the issue should have been solved or at least massively improved long before now. But the issue wasn’t solved, and we deserve to continue with substandard English coaches until it is.

It’s permissible to have a 'foreign' coach so it’s nothing to do with breaking rules. It’s more going against the spirit of international competition, certainly as I see it anyway.

All that said, the decision has been made and we should all respect it and move on. I hope Tuchel succeeds but I also hope that something major is being worked on at the FA to improve the dire coaching situation in this country. I’m not holding my breath!

 

[ManOfSussex]

4 of the top 9 FIFA ranked countries have foreign coaches and I think I read 131 of the 211 FIFA members do as well. Tuchel being German is no big deal anymore.

 

[Triggaaar]

As per the video posted above, Howe wasn’t even spoken to.

But is that because they weren't interested in him, or because he didn't make himself available for an interview because he's not leaving his current job?

 

[Professor Plum]

4 of the top 9 FIFA ranked countries have foreign coaches and I think I read 131 of the 211 FIFA members do as well. Tuchel being German is no big deal anymore.

My point isn’t that no other countries employ 'foreign' coaches. Of course they do.

 

[Professor Plum]

But is that because they weren't interested in him, or because he didn't make himself available for an interview because he's not leaving his current job?

I saw Howe interviewed just a day or so ago when he said he wasn’t ever approached. Tuchel apparently signed his deal 10 days ago and presumably talks will have been going on for weeks. Seems to me that the FA have had Tuchel lined up as their man for a long time now so it suggests that no other English managers (realistically, only Howe and Potter) were talked to.

 

[Eeyore]

Can't believe the outcry over this

Howe who was the front runner seemingly didn't want it

Carsley said he didn't want it and isn't proven

Potter has question marks over him after Chelsea

Not many options out there, people actually suggesting Lampard as an option FFS

I'm not at all outraged by it, but I think the manager should be English.

I think Frank Lampard would have been a good choice. International management is not a heavy tactical game. The managers don't have players long enough. Many have succeeded without impressive CVs. The current Argentine and Spanish managers are the finest examples.

A manager needs to be liked with the players, know the best line up and whether they will work together, and be able to set out a simple game plan that works for them. I was more than happy that Lampard was capable of doing that. I can't see how Tuchel would be any better. Anyway, he's here, and I wish him all the best.

 

[lasvegan]

4 of the top 9 FIFA ranked countries have foreign coaches and I think I read 131 of the 211 FIFA members do as well. Tuchel being German is no big deal anymore.

If his granny was English would he then qualify as being an “English” coach, just like players?