The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Deleted member 22389]

In the case of the Dutch referendum, the EU isn't 'forcing anything through'.

I think this vote however insignificant people thinks it is, actually highlights the problem the EU has with voters.

 

[Maldini]

No, we don't on either a pure numbers basis or on an equivalent skills basis.

The pure numbers basis is the whole point of the population pyramid link that I provided: the number of young (20-34) people in the UK as a percentage of total population is low and decreasing, and the only thing stopping it from collapsing is immigration. From a recent Migration Observatory report[1]:



Youth unemployment in the UK isn't great at 412,000 but it is decreasing[2]. And yes it is very important to find jobs for them for any number of reasons, but blaming the lack of jobs purely on immigration is missing a number of other important factors including the macroeconomic situation and the increasing retirement age.





Figure 7 in [1] shows that wages have pretty much equalised between the uk-born and foreign-born population of the UK, and indeed have been since 2006, so the concept of immigrants dragging down pay is outmoded.



If it were not so easy to come here then many people would die daily due to the lack of qualified doctors and nurses in our health profession alone. So no, the UK would not be safer if it was not so easy to come here.

And the perpetrators of the 7/7 bombers[3] and Lee Rigby's murderer[4] were born in the UK, so it wouldn't have stopped either of the two most memorable terrorist incidents in recent times.

[1]http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/migobs/Briefing%20-%20Characteristics%20and%20Outcomes%20of%20Migrants%20in%20the%20UK%20Labour%20Market_0.pdf
[2]http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05871/SN05871.pdf
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings#Bombers
[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby#Michael_Adebolajo

'Collapsing'? Come on get real.Even you don't believe such nonsense. People adapt.We work within the parameters of what we have.We have enough unemployed workers to take up the slack.Businesses will be forced to up wages and improve conditions and positions will be filled.We will also be forced to train people which we should be doing anyway rather than being lazy and picking skilled people from abroad.

Coming out of the EU doe's not mean NO-ONE can come to the UK.We have always allowed skilled workers and should continue to do so.We don't need millions of low skilled people.

As for the increasing retirement age,another reason we need to save jobs for British workers.

As I said,what is the point of creating millions of jobs because we are part of the EU if these jobs are taken by foreign workers?


Yes I can imagine wages have equalised because they can't fall any lower when the're at the bottom already.As I said before I know of a deli in Brighton paying £3.50 an hour. I know a foreign worker who was working in a shop in convent garden paying £5 an hour.I know a cafe in Brighton paying a foreign worker £6 an hour.You can duplicate this thousands of times.Wages have stabilised at rock bottom and here's the catch,they cannot and will not go up.Impossible.Foreign workers will always keep wages and conditions low.

Safe as in doctors not being able to come here?You're on a wind up?

Yes alot of terrorist acts are carried out by those from that country as with Belgium however it does not mean for one minute that we are only at risk from home grown terrorists. It's not just about terrorism when we are talking about safety.Cologne and all those assaults had nothing to do with terrorism.Look at migrants committing crime in this country.Assaults,rapes,murders.I believe I'm right in saying that the majority of pickpockets in London are from Romania.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

'Collapsing'? Come on get real.Even you don't believe such nonsense. People adapt.We work within the parameters of what we have.We have enough unemployed workers to take up the slack.Businesses will be forced to up wages and improve conditions and positions will be filled.We will also be forced to train people which we should be doing anyway rather than being lazy and picking skilled people from abroad.

Coming out of the EU doe's not mean NO-ONE can come to the UK.We have always allowed skilled workers and should continue to do so.We don't need millions of low skilled people.

As for the increasing retirement age,another reason we need to save jobs for British workers.

As I said,what is the point of creating millions of jobs because we are part of the EU if these jobs are taken by foreign workers?


Yes I can imagine wages have equalised because they can't fall any lower when the're at the bottom already.As I said before I know of a deli in Brighton paying £3.50 an hour. I know a foreign worker who was working in a shop in convent garden paying £5 an hour.I know a cafe in Brighton paying a foreign worker £6 an hour.You can duplicate this thousands of times.Wages have stabilised at rock bottom and here's the catch,they cannot and will not go up.Impossible.Foreign workers will always keep wages and conditions low.

Safe as in doctors not being able to come here?You're on a wind up?

Yes alot of terrorist acts are carried out by those from that country as with Belgium however it does not mean for one minute that we are only at risk from home grown terrorists. It's not just about terrorism when we are talking about safety.Cologne and all those assaults had nothing to do with terrorism.Look at migrants committing crime in this country.Assaults,rapes,murders.I believe I'm right in saying that the majority of pickpockets in London are from Romania.

I agree, these posts where people saying we might not be able to do this or do that is so defeatist it is unbelievable, the country would adapt as you pointed out. It worked much better before.

 

[jgmcdee]

'Collapsing'? Come on get real.Even you don't believe such nonsense. People adapt.

I believe you misunderstand the problem with the population pyramid. Those in the lower age ranges support those above it by being net contributors to the social systems. Without enough people in the lower levels we don't have the overall net contribution able to afford our social services. And yes we could "adapt" but it would involve massive cuts to the health/education/etc.

.We have enough unemployed workers to take up the slack.Businesses will be forced to up wages and improve conditions and positions will be filled.

You seem to be confused here. If we have so many unemployed workers then why will businesses be forced to up wages? And where do you think that money will come from?

As I said,what is the point of creating millions of jobs because we are part of the EU if these jobs are taken by foreign workers?

Because they contribute where UK workers cannot. You can't train professionals in a week, you need years of effort and it's something that hasn't happened regardless of years of known skills shortages.

Yes I can imagine wages have equalised because they can't fall any lower when the're at the bottom already.

You didn't bother to read the first link did you? Taking a few anecdotal incidences doesn't give a good picture. Real wages have dropped steadily over the past 10 years but are hardly at the "bottom".

Safe as in doctors not being able to come here?You're on a wind up?

No I'm not. You seem to think that there's some sort of "undesirable detector" that will allow the "right" people to come in to the country and keep the "wrong" ones out. Care to explain how this might work?

I believe I'm right in saying that the majority of pickpockets in London are from Romania.

I'm sure that you do. Care to provide anything in the way of proof?

 

[Maldini]

I believe you misunderstand the problem with the population pyramid. Those in the lower age ranges support those above it by being net contributors to the social systems. Without enough people in the lower levels we don't have the overall net contribution able to afford our social services. And yes we could "adapt" but it would involve massive cuts to the health/education/etc.



You seem to be confused here. If we have so many unemployed workers then why will businesses be forced to up wages? And where do you think that money will come from?



Because they contribute where UK workers cannot. You can't train professionals in a week, you need years of effort and it's something that hasn't happened regardless of years of known skills shortages.



You didn't bother to read the first link did you? Taking a few anecdotal incidences doesn't give a good picture. Real wages have dropped steadily over the past 10 years but are hardly at the "bottom".



No I'm not. You seem to think that there's some sort of "undesirable detector" that will allow the "right" people to come in to the country and keep the "wrong" ones out. Care to explain how this might work?



I'm sure that you do. Care to provide anything in the way of proof?

I give up.We're going round in circles.You obviously have no confidence in this country.

The only point I will bother to reply to is the 'undesirable detector'. As you know the US,Canada,Australia and plenty of other countries vet who comes in.No reason why we can't do the same.

It's possible as you're doing to look at all the negatives and be defeatist or like me and others consider that we will and can overcome any obstacles,that is assuming there will be obstacles because after all Project Fear is just guess work.

 

[sparkie]

I give up.We're going round in circles.You obviously have no confidence in this country.

The only point I will bother to reply to is the 'undesirable detector'. As you know the US,Canada,Australia and plenty of other countries vet who comes in.No reason why we can't do the same.

It's possible as you're doing to look at all the negatives and be defeatist or like me and others consider that we will and can overcome any obstacles,that is assuming there will be obstacles because after all Project Fear is just guess work.

As well as guesswork from Project Fear, there is also lots of guesswork from Project Fear and Fantasy.

 

[Maldini]

As well as guesswork from Project Fear, there is also lots of guesswork from Project Fear and Fantasy.

Someone else who lives in fear and has no confidence in his fellow countrymen.

You're the 30 year old man who's still living with his parents because he's scared of the unknown.You're the skilled chef who wants his own restaurant but plays it safe and carries on working for someone else.You're the keen traveller who's stopped travelling because of the fear of terrorism.

Maybe it is fantasy.I don't think it is but I'd like the chance to find out.On the other hand I already know the negatives of being in the EU because I see it all the time.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

As a wet dream Tory liar (apparently) I'm so often surprised at the way the out side launch personal criticisms against those on the other side of the debate. Not certain what it proves but I suppose it proves something.

 

[sparkie]

Someone else who lives in fear and has no confidence in his fellow countrymen.

You're the 30 year old man who's still living with his parents because he's scared of the unknown.You're the skilled chef who wants his own restaurant but plays it safe and carries on working for someone else.You're the keen traveller who's stopped travelling because of the fear of terrorism.

Maybe it is fantasy.I don't think it is but I'd like the chance to find out.On the other hand I already know the negatives of being in the EU because I see it all the time.

How dare you.

Tool.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As a wet dream Tory liar (apparently) I'm so often surprised at the way the out side launch personal criticisms against those on the other side of the debate. Not certain what it proves but I suppose it proves something.

Let it go. At least you're allowed to voice an opinion on this thread.

You're probably nearly as surprised as I am about the condescending tone combined with deliberately misleading misinformation coming from the in side. Which draws a predictable response from some on the out side. I think they have been quite restrained overall.

 

[Maldini]

As a wet dream Tory liar (apparently) I'm so often surprised at the way the out side launch personal criticisms against those on the other side of the debate. Not certain what it proves but I suppose it proves something.

I was replying to sparkies sarcasim.

I'm so often surprised at the way the in side launch sarcasim against those on the other side of the debate.Not certain what it proves but I supposed it proves something.

 

[Maldini]

The in campaign should be working on Project Reality.Showing us the amazing things that are happening because we are in the EU.Instead they are working on Project Fear because they have nothing to boast about.On the other hand the leave campaign is working on Project Positive because we see the benefits in leaving and we know we are more than capable of moving forward and growing as a nation.

 

[Maldini]

How dare you.

Tool.

How dare you.

Fool.

 

[jgmcdee]

I give up.We're going round in circles.You obviously have no confidence in this country.

Historically I've had lots of confidence in this country. The generally god-awful policies against technical innovation aside they've been open, inclusive and progressive and done very well out of it, especially in the financial services area where they have done a great job in being a bridge between different financial systems and cultures across all of the important world timezones.

If we leave the EU then my confidence in the country will take a beating. I believe* that it will result in a contraction of the UK economy, drive up the cost of Gilts, and over time cause the financial services sector to migrate to (probably) Germany. For this to happen at all would be sad, but for it to be self-inflicted would be tragic.

*Yes believe, no proof except my feeling after being involved in international businesses for the past 20-odd years, talking to people both inside and outside the EU and reading more than I probably should about worldwide economics.

 

[sir albion]

I believe you misunderstand the problem with the population pyramid. Those in the lower age ranges support those above it by being net contributors to the social systems. Without enough people in the lower levels we don't have the overall net contribution able to afford our social services. And yes we could "adapt" but it would involve massive cuts to the health/education/etc.



You seem to be confused here. If we have so many unemployed workers then why will businesses be forced to up wages? And where do you think that money will come from?



Because they contribute where UK workers cannot. You can't train professionals in a week, you need years of effort and it's something that hasn't happened regardless of years of known skills shortages.



You didn't bother to read the first link did you? Taking a few anecdotal incidences doesn't give a good picture. Real wages have dropped steadily over the past 10 years but are hardly at the "bottom".



No I'm not. You seem to think that there's some sort of "undesirable detector" that will allow the "right" people to come in to the country and keep the "wrong" ones out. Care to explain how this might work?



I'm sure that you do. Care to provide anything in the way of proof?

Tubes....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...manian-officials-say-figures-tip-iceberg.html

 

[Maldini]

*Yes believe, no proof except my feeling after being involved in international businesses for the past 20-odd years, talking to people both inside and outside the EU and reading more than I probably should about worldwide economics.

And that means what?Sorry but there are plenty like you and others who have more experience who can only guess what might happen if we did leave the EU.Did you all see the crash in 2008?No. Did you all see the Euro turning into a disaster?No. Were there plenty of economists who said it would be a disaster if we didn't take on the Euro?Yes.

Perhaps the first year or so after leaving the EU might be a bit of a bumpy ride or maybe not.However after a while I'm sure things will settle down,level out and then we will be the same country we were 10/20 years ago.

Have faith.Believe in your country.

 

[Maldini]

O and hears the good news for you and others who want to vote remain.

We've left the EU,two years down the road it's turned out to be the wrong move.So what do we do?
Errr,rejoin.

You know like when you've left one job for another because you thought the grass was greener but it wasn't so you
go back to your old job looking like a ****.Well at least they will take you back because they need you.

Simples really.

 

[London Irish]

The current Tory corruption disaster has turned this into a coin toss again

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The current Tory corruption disaster has turned this into a coin toss again

A perfect storm is gathering

 

[Maldini]

To all you kids out there,please remember how Cameron screwed you on tuition fees.Remember how he was begging to you yesterday.

June 23rd is your chance to say f..... you too.