The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[jgmcdee]

And that means what?

Well it means that I have a more reasoned opinion than "have faith in your country".

O and hears the good news for you and others who want to vote remain.

We've left the EU,two years down the road it's turned out to be the wrong move.So what do we do?
Errr,rejoin.

You know like when you've left one job for another because you thought the grass was greener but it wasn't so you
go back to your old job looking like a ****.Well at least they will take you back because they need you.

Simples really.

It's going to take two years to just walk out the door. Suggesting that the UK would or could attempt to rejoin after such a short time period is absurd. If the UK votes out of the EU it won't be going back any time soon.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The current Tory corruption disaster has turned this into a coin toss again

'Tory corruption disaster' might be a bit heavy but no matter - repeated incompetence at the top of the Tory cabinet's remain wing is terrific news for the out side, especially given the Labour Party's near-silence on the whole Brexit issue.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

O and hears the good news for you and others who want to vote remain.

We've left the EU,two years down the road it's turned out to be the wrong move.So what do we do?
Errr,rejoin.

You know like when you've left one job for another because you thought the grass was greener but it wasn't so you
go back to your old job looking like a ****.Well at least they will take you back because they need you.

Simples really.

I'm fairly sure that this is a fishing joke but if anyone really thinks it is this simple...

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Historically I've had lots of confidence in this country. The generally god-awful policies against technical innovation aside they've been open, inclusive and progressive and done very well out of it, especially in the financial services area where they have done a great job in being a bridge between different financial systems and cultures across all of the important world timezones.

If we leave the EU then my confidence in the country will take a beating. I believe* that it will result in a contraction of the UK economy, drive up the cost of Gilts, and over time cause the financial services sector to migrate to (probably) Germany. For this to happen at all would be sad, but for it to be self-inflicted would be tragic.

*Yes believe, no proof except my feeling after being involved in international businesses for the past 20-odd years, talking to people both inside and outside the EU and reading more than I probably should about worldwide economics.

What damage do you think the ongoing Euro crisis will bring in future years to consumer demand across the EU, discounting the obvious damage already caused to growth and stability ? As well as the minor matters of circumventing democracy, imposing austerity and mass unemployment.

Is being locked into a collective trade bargaining process going to limit our ability to exploit new and growing markets which could be a useful alternative if Europe continues to struggle economically?

Do you think it likely we can resist paying for the Eurozone failures if we fully commit to staying in?

Is the ongoing political instability within the EU with rising popularity of extremist parties fuelled by the ongoing migrant crisis likely to effect the economies of Europe? Is being locked into this club likely to have unhelpful ramifications for us considering the many areas covered by qualified majority voting?

Note I have tried to steer all my questions to the economy as most other considerations seem to be of little significance to many pro EU opinions.

 

[Maldini]

Well it means that I have a more reasoned opinion than "have faith in your country".



It's going to take two years to just walk out the door. Suggesting that the UK would or could attempt to rejoin after such a short time period is absurd. If the UK votes out of the EU it won't be going back any time soon.

Fear is not a reasoned opinion.

The point is the UK could go back if it wished and the rest of the EU would welcome us with open arms.

 

[GT49er]

Note I have tried to steer all my questions to the economy as most other considerations seem to be of little significance to many pro EU opinions.

This with knobs on. The only argument I've heard from the 'inners' up to now is that it will be bad for the economy and the financial sector (they think, and therefore put it forward as a fact). A coupe of bumpy years with the economy - yeh, right - we've never had one of those since we joined in the 1970s, have we?

We'll cope - let's get out and stop sh*tting ourselves.

 

[GT49er]

The point is the UK could go back if it wished and the rest of the EU would welcome us with open arms.

That is as much a 'fact' as the 'inners' claims that it would be all gloom and doom if we left.

 

[Maldini]

At work I sometimes offer better prices to customers who don't buy from us rather than customers who are with us.

If we left the EU we could easily return on our own terms but it will take us to leave to be in a good negotiating position.
There is also the possibility however if we vote leave,then before we've technically put anything in place that the rest of the EU
will cave in to our demands.On the other hand they may take the view to let us leave and drown and come begging back.

The EU should be about economic union not political.If we rejoined on an economic basis only then ok.
Let's go the whole way and join the Euro.Absurd that Cameron bangs on about how we should all be in the EU
but not the Euro.Hypocrisy.How difficult it is for us to trade with the rest of Europe in another currency.
However I remember Greece,the bailouts and more to come and then I think how can we join the Euro.

We never had a vote to join the EU in a political sense.We vote for our goverments in the elections yet
there are so many laws made for us from people in Brussels who are invisible to us.It's obviously wrong.
This is not democracy.

I take note of the remain campaign but they are throwing nothing at me then shows me any reason to stay in Europe.

We can close our borders and accept who we want as we did before.If we need doctors or any kind of low skilled workers
it should be our choice.

The remain campaign are only focusing on the economic angle.Therefore it interests me if it could be somehow proved that
if we left then we would not suffer economically would they vote to leave? I don't think they would.
The're like a 25 year who lives with their parents who have offered to pay rent for a flat for them to move into.
They know they won't suffer financially but the're scared of the unknown.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Today I purchased a wireless door bell for £17.00, made in China. It grates me to think we send the EU £53,000,000 a day to the EU, I think about the wasted money and the real opportunities and difference this sort of money would make if it was used to promote and help manufacturing companies in this country. Just a £1,000,000 a day of this money would be enough to create thousands of copycat products for sale in the UK, thousands of new jobs.

Vote Leave on June 23rd. And if you get the stupid booklet through your door, return it.

 

[Soulman]

Yes EU, no EU....... Let's make our own decisions.

THE EUROPEAN Union blocked efforts by the UK Government to protect British steel, David Cameron has admitted.
with Brexit campaigners pointing out that EU rules are preventing the government from putting forward a rescue package for the steel industry, Mr Cameron also admitted that he was stopped from putting tariffs on cheap Chinese steel being dumped in Europe.

"Our vision of Europe is one where we try to support free trade rather than a very protectionist Europe."

The comment was seized on by Brexit campaigners as evidence of the problems the UK has in making trade deals which suit Britain while it is tethered to the EU and cannot act alone in the country's interest instead being forced to find compromises with 28 other nations.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...n-ADMITS-Brussels-BLOCKED-bid-rescue-UK-steel

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This with knobs on. The only argument I've heard from the 'inners' up to now is that it will be bad for the economy and the financial sector (they think, and therefore put it forward as a fact). A coupe of bumpy years with the economy - yeh, right - we've never had one of those since we joined in the 1970s, have we?

We'll cope - let's get out and stop sh*tting ourselves.

I have faith in this country's ability to successfully adapt to change and exploit the many new opportunities afforded by regaining the many powers pooled, ceded and surrendered to the EU. If past generations had the mindset of some of the people arguing for staying in we wouldn't be the country we are today.

 

[jgmcdee]

What damage do you think the ongoing Euro crisis will bring in future years to consumer demand across the EU, discounting the obvious damage already caused to growth and stability ? As well as the minor matters of circumventing democracy, imposing austerity and mass unemployment.

Greece should never have been allowed in to the single currency. It was a stupid political mistake and one that has proven and will continue to prove costly in terms of the ability of the EU to manage itself in and out of the Eurozone. That said I honestly have no idea what it has done to consumer demand, and can't find anything on the 'net to read up on it to form a basis for opinion.

Is being locked into a collective trade bargaining process going to limit our ability to exploit new and growing markets which could be a useful alternative if Europe continues to struggle economically?

I think that collective bargaining will be a somewhat slower process due to the size of the deals, but the deals obtained will have better terms than we would achieve alone.

Do you think it likely we can resist paying for the Eurozone failures if we fully commit to staying in?

It depends on what you mean by "Eurozone failures". Areas that affect the EU as a whole, such as the ESCB, are fair game for us to contribute. Does a country have nothing to do with us financially when they adopt the Euro? What about the other way around if it happens: would we want the Eurozone to stand to one side shrugging its shoulders and saying "it's not our currency"? But as it stands, yes I think that the UK has made itself relatively immune to having to contribute to direct monetary problems in the Eurozone.

Is the ongoing political instability within the EU with rising popularity of extremist parties fuelled by the ongoing migrant crisis likely to effect the economies of Europe? Is being locked into this club likely to have unhelpful ramifications for us considering the many areas covered by qualified majority voting?

Well as you are aware we aren't locked in to the club and can invoke article 50 whenever we feel like it.

Note I have tried to steer all my questions to the economy as most other considerations seem to be of little significance to many pro EU opinions.

Not at all, but that's what this particular bit of the thread started out talking about. And I'm bored of people telling me that the EU is undemocratic when it isn't. And I'm bored of people telling me that not caring if the UK is not immediately sovereign over every aspect of the laws that operate inside it makes me an idiot or a traitor.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Just been shopping in Hangleton and the Labour Inner's are out in force. Apparently we should to stay in the EU because they are the only organisation that can deal with these offshore tax havens. He didn't take kindly to me pointing out that the head of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, actively promoted them when PM of Luxembourg. Nor did he take kindly to me pointing out how the Kinnocks changed their minds once the EU started paying their salaries - apparently that's all in the past and irrelevant

 

[Soulman]

Just been shopping in Hangleton and the Labour Inner's are out in force. Apparently we should to stay in the EU because they are the only organisation that can deal with these offshore tax havens. He didn't take kindly to me pointing out that the head of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, actively promoted them when PM of Luxembourg. Nor did he take kindly to me pointing out how the Kinnocks changed their minds once the EU started paying their salaries - apparently that's all in the past and irrelevant

UKIP are out in force in Lancing..... good to see.

 

[Maldini]

I understand Trade Deals.I understand you can probably or should probably get a better deal the bigger you are but I don't believe that's always the case.
At work I can buy in products cheaper than some other larger firms buying the same products because I know how to negotiate plus
manufactuers are always keen to take on more business. If you push and squeeze hard enough it's not that hard to get a good deal.

Those wanting to remain have less reasons to do so than those wanting to leave.

For them it's mainly about trade deals and not much else.A little bit about security but after Paris and Brussels I think it's safe
to say even they will knock that one on the head.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

That is as much a 'fact' as the 'inners' claims that it would be all gloom and doom if we left.

The suggestion that the UK could leave the EU and, if it turned out to be a disaster, slip back in again is not a fact as you surely know.

And once again we have the tired old implication that it is just the inners that are being gloomy and doomy. In the past few days we've had the suggestion that gays will be in danger if we stay in and, yesterday, the claim that British soldiers' lives will be at greater risk if we remain in the EU because... Brussels regulations designed to stop truck drivers working day and night mean that soldiers won't be able to practise driving tanks and things for as long as they want to, meaning that they won't be very good at it and so will be more likely to be killed. Both these bits of nonsense have come from senior figures in the Brexit campaign. As did the rubbish about recycled teabags.

 

[GT49er]

The suggestion that the UK could leave the EU and, if it turned out to be a disaster, slip back in again is not a fact as you surely know. .

Which bit of the use of inverted commas to suggest 'fact' is anything but fact do you not understand?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Greece should never have been allowed in to the single currency. It was a stupid political mistake and one that has proven and will continue to prove costly in terms of the ability of the EU to manage itself in and out of the Eurozone. That said I honestly have no idea what it has done to consumer demand, and can't find anything on the 'net to read up on it to form a basis for opinion.

I agree. The underlying point to my question, sorry for not being clearer, was how political considerations (ever closer union) override economics no matter the damage inflicted on the economies and more importantly the peoples of member states. It also overrides the wishes of some of those people and circumvents democracy. The growing pains of a superstate if you will.

I think that collective bargaining will be a somewhat slower process due to the size of the deals, but the deals obtained will have better terms than we would achieve alone.

Somewhat slower is one way of putting it. Negotiating for the mutual benefit of 2 countries will be likely to be a tad faster than accommodating the often conflicting needs of 29. I haven't seen any evidence that collective bargaining leads to better deals for the UK but have seen evidence the opposite is true. If the Swiss can get free trade deals with China and Japan it would be a shame to have to wait until the EU finally gets round to allowing us to do the same, perhaps in our lifetime if we're lucky. Diversifying the risk of over reliance on one trade block will not only be essential to help protect us from the ongoing Eurozone problems but also mitigate any loss of access to the EU free market.

It depends on what you mean by "Eurozone failures". Areas that affect the EU as a whole, such as the ESCB, are fair game for us to contribute. Does a country have nothing to do with us financially when they adopt the Euro? What about the other way around if it happens: would we want the Eurozone to stand to one side shrugging its shoulders and saying "it's not our currency"? But as it stands, yes I think that the UK has made itself relatively immune to having to contribute to direct monetary problems in the Eurozone.

I mean the only way the Eurozone can move forward or survive is for large transfers of funds from richer nations to bail out the poorer failing members. We have some opt outs now but will this be the case in the future. Blair gave away a large chunk of our rebate for naff all it would be no surprise to see a future pro EU government follow a similar path. I also mentioned the political instability partly fuelled by the migrant crisis which has an ongoing economic impact. £500 million to pay because our European partners can't secure their borders and one of them said all migrants are welcome. Plus of course it won't solve the problem, so much for the value of collective action. The EU exacerbated the problem and has clearly shown it is not up to the task of resolving it. More trouble to follow ..

Well as you are aware we aren't locked in to the club and can invoke article 50 whenever we feel like it.

I thought we were all well aware this is only a theoretical option in reality no government would invoke the article, too many vested interests. (See current referendum debate) It's taken decades just to get this referendum and that was almost by accident. In reality this is our only/last chance to leave.

Not at all, but that's what this particular bit of the thread started out talking about. And I'm bored of people telling me that the EU is undemocratic when it isn't. And I'm bored of people telling me that not caring if the UK is not immediately sovereign over every aspect of the laws that operate inside it makes me an idiot or a traitor.

The people of Greece might disagree. A government was elected with a mandate of ending austerity and even held a referendum reinforcing this particular point but the EUCB/German finance Ministers insisted they go in the opposite direction or leave the club. We can vote in a new government to change political direction in the UK, can we vote in a new Council of Ministers or a new European Commission if we don't like the decisions they are making?

Not caring doesn't make you idiotic or a traitor just perhaps a bit one dimensional in your thinking.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Which bit of the use of inverted commas to suggest 'fact' is anything but fact do you not understand?

Fair point - the subtlety of your punctuation passed me by. And I confess I wasn't expecting you to have a pop at a ludicrous claim from a fellow outer.

 

[5ways]

The in campaign should be working on Project Reality.Showing us the amazing things that are happening because we are in the EU.Instead they are working on Project Fear because they have nothing to boast about.On the other hand the leave campaign is working on Project Positive because we see the benefits in leaving and we know we are more than capable of moving forward and growing as a nation.

What has the EU ever done for us? [video]https://next-video.ft.com/v2/34/47628783001/201602/972/47628783001_4765374166001_4764 197296001.mp4[/video]