*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***

[Pavilionaire]

very good post but as ive already said , weve been talking about being at the heart of the action and ''influence'' for years and nothing ever changes.

The history behind the UK and the EU is not often talked about, but given De Gaulle didn't want the UK to join then it took until he was out of the way for us to finally gain entry - the best part of 25 years of being away from the top table. Once in, France and Germany had carved up the organisation between them and this selfish culture still persists to this day.

The smaller nations have generally done very well out of the EU so have gone along with the French and Germans, meaning that very little of our objections to EU excess have gained any traction within the organisation.

I think the time for the UK to take a more active role is long overdue. The integration of the Eastern European countries has happened in a very dysfunctional way, so rather than helping those countries like Romania and Bulgaria to grow and improve their standard of living EU membership has been taken as a one-way ticket out of the Iron Curtain.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Is it really likely that becoming a 'fully committed' or 'more active' (whatever that means) EU member will mean we will gain more influence or steer the project in a direction more of our choosing?

Consider the fact Cameron is trying to negotiate a better deal with the EU on pain of us leaving and all the possible repercussions that would bring. Polling shows the vote is extremely close so this is no idle threat yet even under the most conducive negotiating conditions we are still as far as I can see being offered a few minor tweaks and nothing substantial.

 

[Paul Reids Sock]

Will be voting in. The most important vote of my lifetime so far. The UK can claim its rightful place at the top table of Europe and make the EU work for the UK, or it can unilaterally surrender its influence and watch France and Germany make rules that we will have to swallow anyway.


If you want the UK to be more than a big Norway without the oil vote leave, if you have a semblance of ambition for this country vote stay.

To be fair Norway is a fantastic country, I would love the UK to be a bit more like it!

 

[Chicken Run]

The fact that there is global markets work undertaken from Sussex is not the point. If I understand correctly, the EU rules prohibit selling of financial products in the EU if the company’s European headquarters is based outside the EU. Amex, given its need to sell financial products to EU countries would be likely to move its European HQ to another EU member state, from where it could continue to service Mexico or wherever.

Or save a load of money and re name the entire building , Corperate HQ maybe…

 

[Chicken Run]

Is it too late for a poll?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Is it really likely that becoming a 'fully committed' or 'more active' (whatever that means) EU member will mean we will gain more influence or steer the project in a direction more of our choosing?

Consider the fact Cameron is trying to negotiate a better deal with the EU on pain of us leaving and all the possible repercussions that would bring. Polling shows the vote is extremely close so this is no idle threat yet even under the most conducive negotiating conditions we are still as far as I can see being offered a few minor tweaks and nothing substantial.

Europe cannot continue on the same path because the richer countries are becoming a magnet for the peoples of the poorer countries. Migrants from Syria enter the EU in Greece but consider all other countries a waste of time until they reach Germany.

The EU was easily controlled by the French and Germans whilst it was just North-West Europe, but now that the EU borders butt up against Africa, Russia and Asia then the EU needs the UK fully on board in matters of policy. Germany in particular cannot cope with the inward migration, the cost of bailing out countries like Greece AND being head of the European family, while France has never been good at organising anything.

 

[Monsieur Le Plonk]

Europe cannot continue on the same path because the richer countries are becoming a magnet for the peoples of the poorer countries. Migrants from Syria enter the EU in Greece but consider all other countries a waste of time until they reach Germany.

The EU was easily controlled by the French and Germans whilst it was just North-West Europe, but now that the EU borders butt up against Africa, Russia and Asia then the EU needs the UK fully on board in matters of policy. Germany in particular cannot cope with the inward migration, the cost of bailing out countries like Greece AND being head of the European family, while France has never been good at organising anything.

Do we want to get deeper into a union where we are at the mercy of the next Greece style financial meltdown and the inevitable bail out that will ensue? Our liability to other countries mismanagement is my greatest reservation and the reason that I am yet to be persuaded to go 'all in'.

 

[Triggaaar]

First of all we were late to the party and have never shared in the post-war European solidarity which has frayed in recent years.

That's a terrible excuse. We were members over 40 years ago before the EU was formed, and if 'late to the party' is a reason why we get no say now, then it will continue to be a reason in the future.

We currently lack clout because we are one foot in one foot out. Why would this change if we voted in?

It wouldn't, we'd continue to be one foot in, one out.

Firstly the UK government would engage with the Commission more closely.

That's nonsense, if we could engage more closely that would have happened years ago.

We had no allies within Europe because we're unreliable, perfidious. If everyone knows we're not going anywhere when we do complain it will carry greater force and influence as is comparable to the strength of our economy.

Lol, what nonsense. You're suggesting that we'll have more influence if they know we're not going to leave - we haven't looked like leaving in the previous 40 years and that hasn't helped. Possibly the only time we might have any influence is now that we might leave. The EU might want us to be in, which could, for a change, give us a brief moment of influence.

 

[Triggaaar]

I've always been Pro-European and I think that our reluctance to commit to the EU has resulted in some of the endemic problems it has.

Compared to most other nation states Britain is an honest country, we contribute, we pay our taxes, we innovate, we are pro-business, we have financial expertise and are an influential world player. Had we been in from the start on an equal footing with France and Germany I don't think we'd have this bloated beast, this unaccountable money pit we now belong to.

I'd like to see the UK vote 'In' but it's time to go beyond that and look to be in the thick of the action, rather than sniping from the sidelines.

But how, and why hasn't it been done before? Why would the autocrats let us change anything?

 

[Triggaaar]

The history behind the UK and the EU is not often talked about, but given De Gaulle didn't want the UK to join then it took until he was out of the way for us to finally gain entry - the best part of 25 years of being away from the top table. Once in, France and Germany had carved up the organisation between them and this selfish culture still persists to this day.

The smaller nations have generally done very well out of the EU so have gone along with the French and Germans, meaning that very little of our objections to EU excess have gained any traction within the organisation.

Yep, that is what the EU is. It's a bit like FIFA. You've got corrupt people in control, and they give votes to minor countries to keep their control, while honest countries like us suffer.

I think the time for the UK to take a more active role is long overdue.

Still waiting to see how this will happen.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Europe cannot continue on the same path because the richer countries are becoming a magnet for the peoples of the poorer countries. Migrants from Syria enter the EU in Greece but consider all other countries a waste of time until they reach Germany.

The EU was easily controlled by the French and Germans whilst it was just North-West Europe, but now that the EU borders butt up against Africa, Russia and Asia then the EU needs the UK fully on board in matters of policy. Germany in particular cannot cope with the inward migration, the cost of bailing out countries like Greece AND being head of the European family, while France has never been good at organising anything.

I agree it can't continue on the same path but I see little sign of directional change of the EU supertanker which is hardly surprising considering most nation states talk a good European game but mainly act in narrow self interests. With the Eurozone (ongoing) crisis and the migrant crisis you would think enough EU member states would realise it's time for a major overhaul. But what do we see instead, temporary sticking plaster solutions enforced austerity then bailout loans and billions of (our) Euros thrown at countries like Turkey in a vain attempt to stem the migrant flow. (After Merkel said all are welcome)

From what I have read about the backsliding on and paucity of Cameron's Renegotiation demands I see little evidence that the other nation states are really that bothered if we leave or stay.

 

[5ways]

Another vote for "Out".
For richer or poorer, right or wrong, let's at least be the masters of our own destiny.

!! we will precisely not be masters of our own destiny if we sit on the sidelines and let France/Germany write the rules. We have more control of the ship if we have a hand on the wheel.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

!! we will precisely not be masters of our own destiny if we sit on the sidelines and let France/Germany write the rules. We have more control of the ship if we have a hand on the wheel.

There are 56 hands on the wheel unfortunately Germany and to a lesser extent France control the rudder.

 

[GT49er]

The EU was easily controlled by the French and Germans whilst it was just North-West Europe, but now that the EU borders butt up against Africa, Russia and Asia then the EU needs the UK fully on board in matters of policy. Germany in particular cannot cope with the inward migration, the cost of bailing out countries like Greece AND being head of the European family, while France has never been good at organising anything.

All in all, an excellent argument for getting the hell out of it.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

This is the sort of pro-Europe "terminological inexactitude" that makes my blood boil!Great Britain's contribution to the European Space Agency in 2015 was322.3 million Euros,so the schoolkids are perfectly entitled to wave Union Jacks!Try telling the whole story,not just your favourite bits

Hope you have recovered from the boiling blood.

I was only quoting something that I read somewhere else, from a very respected journalist. Blame Simon Jenkins - not me.

I do not know the whole story - obviously - or I would have got it right.

 

[cunning fergus]

Europe cannot continue on the same path because the richer countries are becoming a magnet for the peoples of the poorer countries. Migrants from Syria enter the EU in Greece but consider all other countries a waste of time until they reach Germany.

The EU was easily controlled by the French and Germans whilst it was just North-West Europe, but now that the EU borders butt up against Africa, Russia and Asia then the EU needs the UK fully on board in matters of policy. Germany in particular cannot cope with the inward migration, the cost of bailing out countries like Greece AND being head of the European family, while France has never been good at organising anything.

Quite right.

Further, the narrative of the debate is not recgnising the development that will be needed by the EU to cope with the stresses it has largely bought on itself by its own policies.

The euro crisis is not over, and will not be solved until those countries pool liabilities and sovereignty.

This will happen with or without the UK in the EU but if we are still in the implications will be huge.

The EU will cease to be a membership of 28 states, it will be the euro states and non-euro states. It would be perfectly understandable that those newly federated states in the euro will drive policies and change to suit their own ends.

This will be a game changer for those in the EU but not in the euro, and its consequences will essentially be a quasi brexit in terms of how much influence the UK would have in the EU when this happens.

Its a far more likely the the EU will collapse from the inside as the electorate in the euro countries find out that they are essentially just part of Greater Germany.

 

[sir albion]

It's a real shame that everything seems based around money when discussing the EU...What about our sovereignty and culture amongst many other things.
I would happily lose my job for us to get away from the corrupt pointless EU....No way can things continue the way they're and that includes 350,000 immigrants every year.
No way has this country improved and if anything it's getting much much worse...If we commit and go all the way IN then I'd dread to think what would happen to this country...The EU idiots would love to rip our country apart and to take our sovereignty away and this would happen.
The trade rubbish is just propaganda as we'll be far better off out end of and can take our pick.Just remember the EU's goal is to become one and that means the 3 wealthy countries funding the rest as it is now.
The whole EU is a shambles from start to finish and becoming best buddies with Germany and France etc isn't going to happen is it?
Voting IN would literally be like handing our great country away once and for all and money isn't a factor in most of this.This referendum is just bloody massive and I'm hoping one day we can be GREAT BRITAIN again and go back to basics.
We've managed for hundreds of years and thrived as a country without the EU and this will easily be achieved again.

 

[goldstone]

It's a real shame that everything seems based around money when discussing the EU...What about our sovereignty and culture amongst many other things.
I would happily lose my job for us to get away from the corrupt pointless EU....No way can things continue the way they're and that includes 350,000 immigrants every year.
No way has this country improved and if anything it's getting much much worse...If we commit and go all the way IN then I'd dread to think what would happen to this country...The EU idiots would love to rip our country apart and to take our sovereignty away and this would happen.
The trade rubbish is just propaganda as we'll be far better off out end of and can take our pick.Just remember the EU's goal is to become one and that means the 3 wealthy countries funding the rest as it is now.
The whole EU is a shambles from start to finish and becoming best buddies with Germany and France etc isn't going to happen is it?
Voting IN would literally be like handing our great country away once and for all and money isn't a factor in most of this.This referendum is just bloody massive and I'm hoping one day we can be GREAT BRITAIN again and go back to basics.
We've managed for hundreds of years and thrived as a country without the EU and this will easily be achieved again.

Amen to that. Well said Sir Albion. My thoughts exactly. OUT, OUT, and thrice OUT.

 

[East Preston Gull]

It's a real shame that everything seems based around money when discussing the EU...What about our sovereignty and culture amongst many other things.
I would happily lose my job for us to get away from the corrupt pointless EU....No way can things continue the way they're and that includes 350,000 immigrants every year.
No way has this country improved and if anything it's getting much much worse...If we commit and go all the way IN then I'd dread to think what would happen to this country...The EU idiots would love to rip our country apart and to take our sovereignty away and this would happen.
The trade rubbish is just propaganda as we'll be far better off out end of and can take our pick.Just remember the EU's goal is to become one and that means the 3 wealthy countries funding the rest as it is now.
The whole EU is a shambles from start to finish and becoming best buddies with Germany and France etc isn't going to happen is it?
Voting IN would literally be like handing our great country away once and for all and money isn't a factor in most of this.This referendum is just bloody massive and I'm hoping one day we can be GREAT BRITAIN again and go back to basics.
We've managed for hundreds of years and thrived as a country without the EU and this will easily be achieved again.

This!!!
We all cheered as the break up of the Soviet union gave countries back their sovereignty. Now we want to join a European Union.
No way for me.

 

[GT49er]

We all cheered as the break up of the Soviet union gave countries back their sovereignty. Now we want to join a European Union.
No way for me.

Good point!