*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***

[WhingForPresident]

On a side note, the 'Britain Stronger in Europe' campaign really should be forced into a name change; it's a deliberately misleading headline.

 

[Simster]

Firmly in the out camp. This is the organisation that has:
Never had it's accounts signed off.
Tells countries that vote against it's agenda to vote again until they make the right choice.
Installs technocrats into countries that dare to not adopt the EU line.
Relies on fudging things and won't face the reality on the Euro.
Is removing democracy from the citizens.

Not for me thanks.
Europe as a free-trade area? Yes please , all day long.
Europe pulling together on defence, etc. Again, another big yes.
Europe as a superstate. No thanks.

The idea of a UK citizen using the "undemocratic" argument is utterly laughable. This is a country where the two big parties have in built advantages to the extent that they nearly always rule outright with a minority of the vote, an unelected upper chamber (and STILL including hereditary peers!!), and a ruling family that are blatantly living above the laws of the land.

 

[spring hall convert]

The idea of a UK citizen using the "undemocratic" argument is utterly laughable. This is a country where the two big parties have in built advantages to the extent that they nearly always rule outright with a minority of the vote, an unelected upper chamber (and STILL including hereditary peers!!), and a ruling family that are blatantly living above the laws of the land.

Whilst I agree with all your points, I don't really see how being in the EU helps us address these obvious concerns.

 

[Triggaaar]

Let's stay.

Let us? It's funny that the person to start the thread doesn't live here.

 

[Simster]

Whilst I agree with all your points, I don't really see how being in the EU helps us address these obvious concerns.

It doesn't. But using the lack of EU democracy as a stick to beat that organisation seems a little odd, when all we'd be doing is transferring power to another seat of power with a questionable mandate.

My overriding view is that we are better on the inside shaping policy than sneering and whining from the outside while other countries make the decisions that will directly affect us anyhow.

 

[Simster]

Let us? It's funny that the person to start the thread doesn't live here.

But he is in the EU, so I don't actually see the issue with that. It's not like HT is a tax exile in Bermuda.

In fact, if the UK wasn't in the EU, we'd probably have to put up with HT living here, and none of us want that do we?

 

[spring hall convert]

My overriding view is that we are better on the inside shaping policy than sneering and whining from the outside while other countries make the decisions that will directly affect us anyhow.

Which is all well and good but is there actually a tangible example of this ever happening over anything major? The sneering I see tends to be Franco-German toward us.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Let us? It's funny that the person to start the thread doesn't live here.

Cheap shot. I don't reside permanently in the UK no. But I pay a variety of UK taxes, have connections and interests in the UK and do actually spent a fair bit of time in the UK. And above all I'm British. I think I'm quite qualified thank you.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

In fact, if the UK wasn't in the EU, we'd probably have to put up with HT living here, and none of us want that do we?

Very funny. In fact maybe this is my new angle "Vote to stay or HT will be kicked out and maybe living next door to YOU!"

 

[alfredmizen]

It doesn't. But using the lack of EU democracy as a stick to beat that organisation seems a little odd, when all we'd be doing is transferring power to another seat of power with a questionable mandate.

My overriding view is that we are better on the inside shaping policy than sneering and whining from the outside while other countries make the decisions that will directly affect us anyhow.

I would agree with you, but we don't and never have , you only have to look at the CAP and the lack of reform there to illustrate my point.As it stands i'm yet to be swayed by either side.

 

[alfredmizen]

Cheap shot. I don't reside permanently in the UK no. But I pay a variety of UK taxes, have connections and interests in the UK and do actually spent a fair bit of time in the UK. And above all I'm British. I think I'm quite qualified thank you.

You've also previously described yourself as an internationalist and stated that you see nationality as irrelevant , the specific example was that you would not favour a british worker over a european one, so youre being disingenuous in using nationality as a backing to your argument.

 

[5ways]

Is the EU technocratic and bureaucratic? Yes. Is the EU largely undemocratic? Yes. I won't try and deny this. The point is that it will not always be this way. Think long-term, 10, 15, 20 years.

We can and will change the EU to make it more responsive and reflective to national interests - for example the UK does not contribute to bailout funds to Euro using countries, Cameron is also seeking an opt-out from 'ever closer union'. Incremental change can and will happen. Yet if we take the nuclear option and abandon the EU it will morph and change in ways which may be contrary to UK interests, for example by introducing financial regulation that makes the City less competitive and subjects British exports to taxes not levied within the EU.

If the UK does leave for example and the EU overcomes present difficulties we will be extremely isolated and ineffectual power. What we can achieve on issues such as counter-terrorism, climate change, migration, financial regulation etc is extremely limited if we only are able to influence our own jurisdiction.

If we are able to drive European policy we will be able to effect this issues to a much greater degree. People have said that it is a Franco-German top table that we will never be a part of, this is true right now because we are so deeply conflicted about Europe. If we vote to stay the influence of the UK in Europe will match our global standing and our economy - the second biggest in Europe. For example it will be an attractive career prospect for UK graduates, and a great location for European business. We can stamp our mark on Europe if we choose to, we can support a Europe that is focused on competitiveness and free-trade with other like-minded (northern) European countries such as the Netherlands, Germany, Poland etc.

 

[Simster]

Cheap shot. I don't reside permanently in the UK no. But I pay a variety of UK taxes, have connections and interests in the UK and do actually spent a fair bit of time in the UK. And above all I'm British. I think I'm quite qualified thank you.

Just to reiterate what alfredmizen said, your arguments are all over the place. You've never proudly declared yourself as British when it has suited your argument (when you've actually bothered with an argument at all beyond "this").

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You've also previously described yourself as an internationalist and stated that you see nationality as irrelevant , the specific example was that you would not favour a british worker over a european one, so youre being disingenuous in using nationality as a backing to your argument.

Fair points and you're correct, I do see myself as an internationalist. But I have a voting right in this referendum by virtue of being British. This was my point.

Although I don't favour a Brit worker over a Euro one...I favour them both equally.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just to reiterate what alfredmizen said, your arguments are all over the place. You've never proudly declared yourself as British when it has suited your argument (when you've actually bothered with an argument at all beyond "this").

Please see above.

And the post you quote says at the end "I think I'm qualified". I'm not making any claims to be a proud Brit....just stating why I'm qualified to start this thread and campaign to keep the UK in. This is all

 

[Triggaaar]

Cheap shot. I don't reside permanently in the UK no. But I pay a variety of UK taxes, have connections and interests in the UK and do actually spent a fair bit of time in the UK. And above all I'm British. I think I'm quite qualified thank you.

You must see the irony though? A lot of British citizens want to leave the EU, and yet it's a German citizen that's saying "Let's stay". You've already left.

 

[Soulman]

Herr Tub.....I take it you meant ' offer' a lot to the EU....precisely...I agree because it's been all take from the UK and offer very little in return..
The EU sold us £61 billion more to us than we sold to them...for over a year we have sold more to the rest of the world than we did to the EU and we paid £9 billion a year to the EU for the privilege.
The EU is corrupt and has not ever managed to ratify it's accounts...dubious land held for French farmers so they can claim sub...which in turn destroyed our fishing fleet...Spanish fisherman registering in the UK so they can fish our waters but take their catch back to Spain.
EU....nah! I would like a vote on who rules the UK ...not an unelected European
EU.....NO!NO! NO!.

Outstanding post.

 

[alfredmizen]

Fair points and you're correct, I do see myself as an internationalist. But I have a voting right in this referendum by virtue of being British. This was my point.

Although I don't favour a Brit worker over a Euro one...I favour them both equally.

that is something i just cannot get my head around .

 

[Triggaaar]

People have said that it is a Franco-German top table that we will never be a part of, this is true right now because we are so deeply conflicted about Europe. If we vote to stay the influence of the UK in Europe will match our global standing and our economy - the second biggest in Europe.

Sorry, what's the excuse for Britain having such little power in the EU right now, and why would it change?

The EU is an awful corrupt institution, and we don't get a fair say in how things are run, and there's no reason why that would suddenly change.

Fair points and you're correct, I do see myself as an internationalist. But I have a voting right in this referendum by virtue of being British. This was my point.

But our point was the irony of you suggesting 'we' should stay, and you answered that by saying you're British - you weren't merely pointing out that you'd get a vote, you were suggesting your views align with British citizens, and they don't.

 

[Soulman]

that is something i just cannot get my head around .

You don't need to, he leaves himself open. To start a thread like this by someone who doesn't live here and comes across as anti British, is like Dougie Freeman telling us what is best for the Albion.