*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***

[Chicken Run]

Having spent a long time in my life as fervently pro-European, this pretty much exactly states my position. I'm looking likely to vote leave as things stand.

Pretty much this.

 

[soistes]

Does anyone seriously think that American Express will keep its European headquarters in Brighton, if the UK leaves the EU?

 

[Mackenzie]

Buy British.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

that is something i just cannot get my head around .

I know we differ on this but I feel strongly about worker's rights in general. Herr Tubthumper's helping hand is offered to everyone

 

[5ways]

Sorry, what's the excuse for Britain having such little power in the EU right now, and why would it change?

First of all we were late to the party and have never shared in the post-war European solidarity which has frayed in recent years. We currently lack clout because we are one foot in one foot out. Why would this change if we voted in? Firstly the UK government would engage with the Commission more closely. What this would look like is the sharing and secondment of UK and EU civil servants going both ways, it would also mean more Brits in European institutions and more British EU civil servants. Moreover the centre of gravity of the EU would be pushed north.

The UK disdains the outrageous economic policy of the European periphery. We're not much a fan of Southern European regulation and working practices. Well neither is Germany. If we vote to stay MEPs will become less of total joke. We might even begin to understand what they do. This all feeds into European policy. Less welfare, more competition, less regulation, more growth.

One example is when Cameron's objection to Junker fell on deaf years. We had no allies within Europe because we're unreliable, perfidious. If everyone knows we're not going anywhere when we do complain it will carry greater force and influence as is comparable to the strength of our economy.

 

[Chicken Run]

Does anyone seriously think that American Express will keep its European headquarters in Brighton, if the UK leaves the EU?

Yes, are you actually aware that these days a lot of the work done not only in the multi million pound new building but sites all over Sussex and Uk is for markets all over the world. My wife is currently working daily from there in line with a Mexican product.

 

[alfredmizen]

I know we differ on this but I feel strongly about worker's rights in general. Herr Tubthumper's helping hand is offered to everyone

I dont mean this in a condescending way but i think its the sort of background you have , i get the impression you come from a very middle class family and didnt have the ''look after your own '' attitude imbued in you , whereas i come from a (pretty well off) working class background where i was brought up to look after your own first and foremost.

 

[soistes]

Yes, are you actually aware that these days a lot of the work done not only in the multi million pound new building but sites all over Sussex and Uk is for markets all over the world. My wife is currently working daily from there in line with a Mexican product.

The fact that there is global markets work undertaken from Sussex is not the point. If I understand correctly, the EU rules prohibit selling of financial products in the EU if the company’s European headquarters is based outside the EU. Amex, given its need to sell financial products to EU countries would be likely to move its European HQ to another EU member state, from where it could continue to service Mexico or wherever.

 

[cunning fergus]

The idea of a UK citizen using the "undemocratic" argument is utterly laughable. This is a country where the two big parties have in built advantages to the extent that they nearly always rule outright with a minority of the vote, an unelected upper chamber (and STILL including hereditary peers!!), and a ruling family that are blatantly living above the laws of the land.

What you are recognising is that we already have some aspects of our democracy that are not good enough, are we going to resolve these problems by adding even more layers of dubious democracy. Usually once you know you are in a hole the best advice is to stop digging.

There is also a question of magnitude to consider too; for example if the politicians in this country wanted to invite a country actively at war with Russia, or a country of 77 million muslims to join the UK I would expect we could exercise a vote.

Do you think we would get that vote with the EU?

 

[Pavilionaire]

I've always been Pro-European and I think that our reluctance to commit to the EU has resulted in some of the endemic problems it has.

Compared to most other nation states Britain is an honest country, we contribute, we pay our taxes, we innovate, we are pro-business, we have financial expertise and are an influential world player. Had we been in from the start on an equal footing with France and Germany I don't think we'd have this bloated beast, this unaccountable money pit we now belong to.

I'd like to see the UK vote 'In' but it's time to go beyond that and look to be in the thick of the action, rather than sniping from the sidelines.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It very difficult to just come out with some examples without a specific question. It's a bit like someone asking me where to go in Berlin. I need some detail. I'm happy to engage but need some specifics. Fire away!!

Specific examples/evidence relating to the reasons you gave ....

For worker's rights, for the UK economy, for the greatness of Great Britain let's stay in the EU as a willing and active partner steering the UK and Europe onto better things. We're culturally and financially better off within. Let's stay.

Maybe in the new year I'll start a thread detailing a daily specific item which Herr Tubthumper encounters, and benefits from, as he goes about his jolly european life?

(Tongue is partly in check)

Sounds intriguing, hopefully the specific items won't include being caught up in far right and other anti immigration street protests.

(Tongue is partly in cheek)

 

[alfredmizen]

I've always been Pro-European and I think that our reluctance to commit to the EU has resulted in some of the endemic problems it has.

Compared to most other nation states Britain is an honest country, we contribute, we pay our taxes, we innovate, we are pro-business, we have financial expertise and are an influential world player. Had we been in from the start on an equal footing with France and Germany I don't think we'd have this bloated beast, this unaccountable money pit we now belong to.

I'd like to see the UK vote 'In' but it's time to go beyond that and look to be in the thick of the action, rather than sniping from the sidelines.

very good post but as ive already said , weve been talking about being at the heart of the action and ''influence'' for years and nothing ever changes.

 

[beorhthelm]

what the "in" camp overlook or rather try to draw attention away from, is that its not about trade and open borders, its about political union. everything is a step towards an inevitable "United States of Europe", ruled by unelected bureaucrats. look how we are having to beg to change rule on how we determine who gets paid benefits, because apparently we have already ceded control of our welfare system to the EU. of course we didnt, not directly anyway, its done through the back door, by secondary Directives or legal judgment based on loose words of some treaty clause. Freedom of movement of labour was originally meant to mean just that, you could move for work anywhere. not move and claim welfare when you didnt have work.

It isnt about economics, we can have free trade without political union.
it isnt about culture, we can share culture quite happily and have done with the world for centruies.
it certainly isnt about immigration, thats a smokescreen for little england.
its about sovereignty and who will govern us and set our laws.

Why does anyone think the UK will be allowed access to the EU single market without signing up to EU Directives? The European Free Trade Area currently consists of Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway. To sell into the EU without customs tariffs, these countries have to sign up to around 80% of EU law, including the employment law and the principle of freedom of movement.

there's a gaping hole in the argument, most business don't deal with Europe. why should the sandwich shop or local tradesman need to follow EU directives when they dont sell or deal in anyway with the EU?

 

[alfredmizen]

what the "in" camp overlook or rather try to draw attention away from, is that its not about trade and open borders, its about political union. everything is a step towards an inevitable "United States of Europe", ruled by unelected bureaucrats. look how we are having to beg to change rule on how we determine who gets paid benefits, because apparently we have already ceded control of our welfare system to the EU. of course we didnt, not directly anyway, its done through the back door, by secondary Directives or legal judgment based on loose words of some treaty clause. Freedom of movement of labour was originally meant to mean just that, you could move for work anywhere. not move and claim welfare when you didnt have work.

It isnt about economics, we can have free trade without political union.
it isnt about culture, we can share culture quite happily and have done with the world for centruies.
it certainly isnt about immigration, thats a smokescreen for little england.
its about sovereignty and who will govern us and set our laws.



there's a gaping hole in the argument, most business don't deal with Europe. why should the sandwich shop or local tradesman need to follow EU directives when they dont sell or deal in anyway with the EU?

Very very good post.

 

[Albion in the north]

Another vote for "Out".
For richer or poorer, right or wrong, let's at least be the masters of our own destiny.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I dont mean this in a condescending way but i think its the sort of background you have , i get the impression you come from a very middle class family and didnt have the ''look after your own '' attitude imbued in you , whereas i come from a (pretty well off) working class background where i was brought up to look after your own first and foremost.

You're completely wrong. I come from a solid working class family and back ground. I was raised on an estate. We didn't always struggle financially but it would be a stretch to say we were well off; overtime in the factory kept us going. Our family also looked after it's own; mainly because it had to. I also look out for others though. I have my reasons, it's family background based. And whilst i have a comfortable life-style these days it's my working class values, beliefs and traditions which define me and my ideas. My father is a working class Tory as well.

And it didn't come across as condescending.

 

[Two Professors]

Absolutely stay in.

With all the stuff about Tim Peake, our latest astronaut, over the last few days, and our glorious Prime Minister saying yesterday in the House what a triumph for British space exploration this is, there is a very interesting article in the Guardian today by Simon Jenkins pointing out that:
1. We have only put something like £16million in to the International Space station programme altogether...... and
2. He is actually there thanks to the European Space Agency, so all the schoolkids who are waving Union jacks perhaps should actually be waving European Flags... and
3. This is actually the 373rd flight to the International Space Station, so where were we for the other 372.

Of course, if we were by ourselves and not in Europe, the money we would have saved would mean that we would have colonised Pluto by now.

This is the sort of pro-Europe "terminological inexactitude" that makes my blood boil!Great Britain's contribution to the European Space Agency in 2015 was322.3 million Euros,so the schoolkids are perfectly entitled to wave Union Jacks!Try telling the whole story,not just your favourite bits

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've always been Pro-European and I think that our reluctance to commit to the EU has resulted in some of the endemic problems it has.

Compared to most other nation states Britain is an honest country, we contribute, we pay our taxes, we innovate, we are pro-business, we have financial expertise and are an influential world player. Had we been in from the start on an equal footing with France and Germany I don't think we'd have this bloated beast, this unaccountable money pit we now belong to.

I'd like to see the UK vote 'In' but it's time to go beyond that and look to be in the thick of the action, rather than sniping from the sidelines.

Agree totally

 

[Hillian1]

It's a Oui from me.

 

[Billy the Fish]

So far I'd say this thread is quite similar to my train of thought when I think how I would vote. My gut feeling is out for many of the reasons already stated, but then I wonder about the tangible effects it could have on people's lives, if like soistes says corporations might be forced to move away from the UK, or trade levies are placed on us which could badly affect exporters.

Do I vote to stick with something I feel that we as a nation get a very raw deal from and is wasteful and undemocratic, but maintain the current status quo.

Or vote out on principal and risk rocking the boat, put up with any negatives and hope they are outweighed by the positives.

I'm really not sure and don't think the In/Out campaigns will help once they get started - everyone has a vested interest so the information coming out either way is bound to be tainted somehow.