Said the same things about the Euro, they are just pissing in the wind, no problem with them wishing to stay in but leave their views on possible financial outcomes to those that got it right and warned at the time of its probable failings these people are discredited europhiles, thats all.
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*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***
- Thread starter Herr Tubthumper
- Start date
Said the same things about the Euro, they are just pissing in the wind, no problem with them wishing to stay in but leave their views on possible financial outcomes to those that got it right and warned at the time of its probable failings these people are discredited europhiles, thats all.
glasfryn
cleaning up cat sick
so is 55m a day
how many schools and hospitals and the staff could we buy with that?
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
Yes, I find NSC depressingly a hotbed of UKIP-ism, which I personally hope isn't reflective of the overall population.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,026
considering thats less than what we pay in, thats a shaky argument. further, talk of no trade deal ignores the fact that out of the EU, the UK would be one of the largest export markets. it would be in their interest to maintain free trade.
- Thread starter
- #125
Sure it's in the EU's interest to trade with the UK but will they offer a free trade deal? They haven't with any of the other non-EU countries in the EEA like Norway and Switzerland. Why would they allow the UK be different?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,026
we can start with EEA, and if they can make an exception for them from how they deal with non-EEA countries, they can make another exception. there's nothing to prevent a straight free trade with say compliance to EU law and standards for imports - which you'd expect if you were Brazil, Japan or China. freedom of movement would even be on the table within restrictions (like, say how it was originally meant). we arent in Schengen after all, or the Euro, so things can and will be up for negotiation. also bear in mind tariffs raised from reciprocal tariffs. saying "there will be £11bn trade tariffs" is basically the worse case scenario.
The operative would being 'could' which he used because he was unable to use the word 'will'. How about posting the views of the head of JCB ?
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
I have been genuinely surprised at the lack of coherent arguments for staying in. Fear of the unknown seems to be the main reason for voting in which isn't particularly inspiring or convincing.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
It is always easier to put across a point of criticism, than to just state you like things as they are.
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
Very true and those that oppose something are usually far more vociferous. But on such a momentous issue which will have far reaching consequences I was expecting the staying in arguments to be better defined.
The necessity of being part of a powerful trading block in a world dominated by global capitalism is one that gives me pause for thought.
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
Youre digging yourself into a bit of a hole with posts like this.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,274
I agree with this. The "In" argument has not been put across with any conviction because politicians from Labour and (especially) Tory have many in their party who don't believe in Europe and both want to win UKIP votes. Therefore, they are afraid to commit and the whole debate looks half-arsed and weak.
Just off the top of my head of policy issues that benefit from being part of a larger bloc - environmental policy, health policy, prevention of crime and terrorism, tariff control, human rights, workers rights, cultural affairs, drugs policy, the European Space Agency.
Bevendean Hillbilly
New member
Really? I find NSC to be far more liberal than other football forums. Your hope is a forlorn one I'm afraid because just about everyone I know, especially among NHS doctors and nurses, is of the same opinion. We have thrown away thousands of training places for British nurses because it's cheaper to fly trained staff in from Eastern Europe or the. Philippines or Africa than to spend on uni places for Brits. The result has been a massive over reliance on foreign labour which means a BIG variance in quality and ability.
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
Aren't there also negative consequences though. For instance I'm not sure how many of those policy issues are subject to qualified majority voting but theoretically we can have policies foisted upon us that are opposed by the UK electorate and our government.
Another problem I have read about is how we seem to abide by the letter of each EU law/directive while other countries take a certain laissez-faire attitude to honouring them. One of the underlying causes of the Eurozone crisis was how many countries were allowed to flout strict economic criteria meant to see off the problems that then developed. Cooperating on many of these areas is only truly worthwhile if all pull their weight.
I would think in most cases a sensible level of agreement and common ground could be reached in most areas between a completely sovereign independent UK and the EU. With the added bonus of having clear electoral accountability if we the people don't like what they have signed us up to.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,026
and yet none of those areas do we need to be in the political union to benefit from. take environment policy, being directed by international agreement of over 190 countries; human rights we drafted the original european convention before the original Steel and Coal community even existed; ESA involves counties out of EU including Norway and Canada. etc. international cooperation does not require centralised power in Brussels with hotline to Berlin.
The Merry Prankster
Pactum serva
The fact that that's all you can see in the sorry saga reflects a simplistic view of affairs. Quelle surprise, as they say on the continent.
Thanks for the invite, but no thanks. Wouldn't say the highlighted is strictly true. Very debatable.
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
Enlighten me then.
Philip Davies, Conservative MP for Shipley and veteran Eurosceptic backbencher, has written this exclusive article for Get Britain Out:
In the run up to the EU referendum many myths will be circulated. Therefore, by using the facts, I will try to outline why I believe we are always ‘Better off out’!
The first myth is that the UK must stay in the EU for influence – i.e. we need to be at the top table making the decisions.
Yet, throughout the last 5 years the UK voted against 23 motions in the EU Council – and yet in every single instance the vote was passed against our wishes. So much for our influence!
Instead of being 1 of 9 countries like in 1975, we are now 1 of 28. The EU has grown tremendously over the past 40 years, and with each new country, our influence lessens.
The economy is also an issue concerning voters. Indeed, many people will be happy to accept the loss of sovereignty or the ability to control our borders if this means we will benefit economically by staying in the EU.
Unfortunately, this is one of the biggest myths.
Trade will not be lost in the case of Brexit, and the reason is that trade is a two-way street – our European neighbours make money from us too! In fact, they make more money from us than we do from them. Every year since 1973 Britain has been running a balance of trade deficit with the EU, which was a staggering £62 billion in the most recent year. In fact the House of Commons Library has confirmed that if we left the EU, the UK would be the EU’s single biggest export market (bigger than the US and China), and it is safe to say, Germany will still want to sell us BMWs and Mercedes and France will still want to sell us champagne and cheese!
Another scare story is that millions of jobs would be lost if the UK left the EU. However, when did we suddenly gain millions of jobs by joining the EU? This is because these jobs are not dependant on EU membership, but are related to trade with European countries. Statistical assessments have shown the number of UK jobs dependent on
European trade to be 4.5 million [4,462,270], but the corresponding number of jobs in the remaining EU countries dependant on British trade is nearly 6.5 million [6,394,207].
http://getbritainout.org/philip-davies-mp-its-time-to-bust-eu-myths/
In the run up to the EU referendum many myths will be circulated. Therefore, by using the facts, I will try to outline why I believe we are always ‘Better off out’!
The first myth is that the UK must stay in the EU for influence – i.e. we need to be at the top table making the decisions.
Yet, throughout the last 5 years the UK voted against 23 motions in the EU Council – and yet in every single instance the vote was passed against our wishes. So much for our influence!
Instead of being 1 of 9 countries like in 1975, we are now 1 of 28. The EU has grown tremendously over the past 40 years, and with each new country, our influence lessens.
The economy is also an issue concerning voters. Indeed, many people will be happy to accept the loss of sovereignty or the ability to control our borders if this means we will benefit economically by staying in the EU.
Unfortunately, this is one of the biggest myths.
Trade will not be lost in the case of Brexit, and the reason is that trade is a two-way street – our European neighbours make money from us too! In fact, they make more money from us than we do from them. Every year since 1973 Britain has been running a balance of trade deficit with the EU, which was a staggering £62 billion in the most recent year. In fact the House of Commons Library has confirmed that if we left the EU, the UK would be the EU’s single biggest export market (bigger than the US and China), and it is safe to say, Germany will still want to sell us BMWs and Mercedes and France will still want to sell us champagne and cheese!
Another scare story is that millions of jobs would be lost if the UK left the EU. However, when did we suddenly gain millions of jobs by joining the EU? This is because these jobs are not dependant on EU membership, but are related to trade with European countries. Statistical assessments have shown the number of UK jobs dependent on
European trade to be 4.5 million [4,462,270], but the corresponding number of jobs in the remaining EU countries dependant on British trade is nearly 6.5 million [6,394,207].
http://getbritainout.org/philip-davies-mp-its-time-to-bust-eu-myths/