[Politics] The Labour Government

[Herr Tubthumper]

If by ‘stumbled across a lucky break’ you mean working in an industry for 17 years building up a skill, a reputation and a network, making contacts and expanding knowledge and experience, then finding the right investor and being brave enough to take the plunge and walk away from a well paid job with a young family, spending 2 years working 12 hour days trying to get a start-up off the ground whilst consistently flirting with bankruptcy, before finally turning a corner and then 12 months later being hit with a once in a generation pandemic that would have finished us off had it not been for the furlough scheme, then after scraping through that managing to put two years of growth together enabling us to aggressively hire 30-40 young people over the next two years, most of who were utterly incapable despite the hours and hours of training and development we put into them, before the whole thing falling apart again in 2023 due to investors pulling their money out of US Biotech, meaning having to make 20 people redundant in a day and then systematically cutting 2-3 people a month for the whole of last year, leaving us days from bankruptcy again at the start of 2024, before the market finally rallying and us scraping through all of this year with red numbers until eventually things seem to have stabilised just enough for us to finally start to think about growing again, and being nervous about going down the same route as before, then yes, it was an incredibly lucky break.

I mean, I’m not sure I’ve ever been offended on NSC before, but that was pretty bloody close.

Put like that I’m surprised you can be arsed !

 

[Commander]

Maybe it’s a symptom of the nature of your work and/or the recruitment process? You said yourself you recruit people with no real qualifications….if people can’t be arsed to get educated I’d suggest they probably won’t be arsed with work either. One thing qualifications or college does is demonstrate an ability to apply oneself.

That aside, what you’re describing is a classic low cost center situation. SA is seemingly currently very popular and for many reasons: time zone, level of education and English language and accent being the thrust of this. The one issue with the LCCs I have experience of (mainly Southern Asia) in my sector is the turn over; anyone who is good will start asking for more money and/or leave. Many see it as a gateway to riches elsewhere and often abroad; the good and the ambitious will achieve this by their very nature. Over time you’re left with very average people and higher staffing costs. An industry friend wrote a paper on this and estimated 2 years. This is my sector ; maybe yours is different.

There are successes though, some companies haven’t so much out sourced, but set up huge offices and operations with all the associated layers of management and diversity of positions which engenders work mobility and goes someway to mitigate the aforementioned issues.

We haven’t only taken people who aren’t educated. We’ve taken people with 3 languages and a master’s degree. And to be honest I’d say they were probably the worst ones. My most successful hires have been people with no qualifications who’ve got to that stage in their life where they’ve thought ‘shit, I need to make a go of things now’. All the people I’ve hired that have done really well have been in that demographic. But the problem is you have to burn through a lot of wasters who say the right things but don’t mean them before you find those people. And that isn’t possible if somebody has full employment rights from day one and you can’t have the ‘this isn’t working’ chat when it is clear that it isn’t after a few weeks / months.

To be honest, after my experience of the last few years I’d bite your hand off for for average people and high staffing costs…

 

[Commander]

Put like that I’m surprised you can be arsed !

Yes well I have had that conversation with myself many times! But it will be worth it if I can retire at 55.

 

[cjd]

Maybe it’s a symptom of the nature of your work and/or the recruitment process? You said yourself you recruit people with no real qualifications….if people can’t be arsed to get educated I’d suggest they probably won’t be arsed with work either. One thing qualifications or college does is demonstrate an ability to apply oneself.

When I read arrogant shit like this I despair.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

We haven’t only taken people who aren’t educated. We’ve taken people with 3 languages and a master’s degree. And to be honest I’d say they were probably the worst ones. My most successful hires have been people with no qualifications who’ve got to that stage in their life where they’ve thought ‘shit, I need to make a go of things now’. All the people I’ve hired that have done really well have been in that demographic. But the problem is you have to burn through a lot of wasters who say the right things but don’t mean them before you find those people. And that isn’t possible if somebody has full employment rights from day one and you can’t have the ‘this isn’t working’ chat when it is clear that it isn’t after a few weeks / months.

To be honest, after my experience of the last few years I’d bite your hand off for for average people and high staffing costs…

Fair enough. The key is to identify the “stage in their life where they’ve thought ‘shit, I need to make a go of things now’.” cohort; how you do this I don’t know. I think I’m correct in saying no one has full employment rights until 6 months in Germany. There’s nothing to stop folk performing well then taking their foot off the gas after this period but this does weed out the truly shit. 6 months then you’re stuck with someone with very strong rights.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

When I read arrogant shit like this I despair.

Did you really think that was arrogant?

 

[Commander]

When I read arrogant shit like this I despair.

Yes it isn’t great. HT is alright though, so I forgive him.

 

[cjd]

Did you really think that was arrogant?

I don't think it was. I know it was.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Yes it isn’t great. HT is alright though, so I forgive him.

It wasn’t meant to be; more questioning expectations. But you subsequently added a different angle to it which I hadn’t considered. Apologies.

 

[cjd]

Did you really think that was arrogant?

To even suggest that because some people are not academically minded they " can't be arsed to get educated so probably can't be arsed to work" is just disgusting.

Not unlike you.

 

[Commander]

It wasn’t meant to be; more questioning expectations. But you subsequently added a different angle to it which I hadn’t considered. Apologies.

When I started in this game I had no qualifications. Mainly because I was a right lazy f*** more interested in getting pissed than wanting to work.

Obviously I’ve completely changed now

 

[Weststander]

Am all for workers rights but glad I no longer employ. Employed dozens of youngsters over years by taking them on very low wages for an initial 3 months and then made a decision whether we felt they had the qualities and hunger needed. I would estimate because of good judgement at initial interview stage most had decent career. When we were very busy I would expect people to work very long hours and grab a sandwich for lunch and of course in appreciation of this would be happy on request for people to leave early.

I’ve sat with probably 100’s of bosses, and their staff, over decades. A real insight.

Good employers are worth their weight in gold, staff generally go the extra mile. If someone works in that scenario and is happy, hang around!

There are also some vile business owners out there, interestingly it’s got zilch to do with their background or party politics. I saw tw@ts who had a working class background, claimed to be Labour, yet treated staff like crap. Also posh horrible bosses.

 

[cjd]

When I started in this game I had no qualifications. Mainly because I was a right lazy f*** more interested in getting pissed than wanting to work.

Obviously I’ve completely changed now

And there is what I find so interesting.

People progress at different stages in their life. Unfortunately , early education is all about attainment at 16 for GCSE,s ( GCE,s in my day ) and A-levels at 18...and so on. If you're not on the conveyor belt at those ages, some arseholes write you off.

I have six children.

The eldest got zero GCSE,s at 16. Did a further year at the Academy which I used to see him playing football almost non stop every time I passed the school playing fields in my car.

I took him to France with me and asked a friend to employ him for a few weeks who was building a bungalow. After several weeks, he came back to the UK with me and I asked him what he wanted to do...more education or what...? " I 'm happy to dig holes in the road dad " he said. I phoned a friend and he commenced worked in the building industry. The only thing I asked him, was to do his best. He did. Fast forward the next 8 years...he worked hard and diligently. He started his own business. Fast forward again, he has multiple properties, a terrific reputation locally for the standard of his company's work and work ethic and employs anything between 9 and 15 employees,.. He has a thriving family, each now building their own dynasties. He posts on here rarely, but knows I do.

My eldest daughter left school with no GCSe's. She now, after many years later, has a degree , her partner is a consultant in the NHS. She is thriving with her family and works bloody hard at A & E in Worthing.. My next son earns more than I ever did at 25 years old. Next in line is my 23year old son just buying his first property. A bit late but hey ho. The next two are in similar positions. I hope they will succeed too, but education....? It is merely another string to your bow. A good thing to have, but to never, never, never ever to be written off by the likes of Herr Tubthumper who as far as I can see his only vice and usefulness in society is to fill his face with fancy foods and buy expensive running shoes ( or maybe inner tubes for his bicycle ...I can never remember quite what his relevance in life is ).

Education can be a great help....but it really isn't the only answer to a good and fulfilling life, not just for yourself, but to society too.

 

[Commander]

And there is what I find so interesting.

People progress at different stages in their life. Unfortunately , early education is all about attainment at 16 for GCSE,s ( GCE,s in my day ) and A-levels at 18...and so on. If you're not on the conveyor belt at those ages, some arseholes write you off.

I have six children.

The eldest got zero GCSE,s at 16. Did a further year at the Academy which I used to see him playing football almost non stop every time I passed the school playing fields in my car.

I took him to France with me and asked a friend to employ him for a few weeks who was building a bungalow. After several weeks, he came back to the UK with me and I asked him what he wanted to do...more education or what...? " I 'm happy to dig holes in the road dad " he said. I phoned a friend and he commenced worked in the building industry. The only thing I asked him, was to do his best. He did. Fast forward the next 8 years...he worked hard and diligently. He started his own business. Fast forward again, he has multiple properties, a terrific reputation locally for the standard of his company's work and work ethic and employs anything between 9 and 15 employees,.. He has a thriving family, each now building their own dynasties. He posts on here rarely, but knows I do.

My eldest daughter left school with no GCSe's. She now, after many years later, has a degree , her partner is a consultant in the NHS. She is thriving with her family and works bloody hard at A & E in Worthing.. My next son earns more than I ever did at 25 years old. Next in line is my 23year old son just buying his first property. A bit late but hey ho. The next two are in similar positions. I hope they will succeed too, but education....? It is merely another string to your bow. A good thing to have, but to never, never, never ever to be written off by the likes of Herr Tubthumper who as far as I can see his only vice and usefulness in society is to fill his face with fancy foods and buy expensive running shoes ( or maybe inner tubes for his bicycle ...I can never remember quite what his relevance in life is ).

Education can be a great help....but it really isn't the only answer to a good and fulfilling life, not just for yourself, but to society too.

I think to be honest the single most important skill in life is the ability to influence (and dare I say manipulate) people. You don’t really learn that in education, and no amount of academic prowess can teach you that. Success in life has very little to do with intelligence / academic achievement in my experience, and everything to do with social skills and the ability to spot opportunities when they come along, and take advantage of them.

If I was given the opportunity to magic a skill into my offspring it wouldn’t be a language or a trade or a qualification, it would be the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do.

That sounds awful reading it back, but it isn’t meant to be. If you have that skill you can do anything.

You should leave HT alone though, he’s alright. He just likes to provoke.

 

[Weststander]

I think to be honest the single most important skill in life is the ability to influence (and dare I say manipulate) people. You don’t really learn that in education, and no amount of academic prowess can teach you that. Success in life has very little to do with intelligence / academic achievement in my experience, and everything to do with social skills and the ability to spot opportunities when they come along, and take advantage of them.

If I was given the opportunity to magic a skill into my offspring it wouldn’t be a language or a trade or a qualification, it would be the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do.

That sounds awful reading it back, but it isn’t meant to be. If you have that skill you can do anything.

You should leave HT alone though, he’s alright. He just likes to provoke.

My advice to anyone looking at careers. Is to get good at something, invariably that takes time and resilience, and make sure it’s something you enjoy or at least don’t mind but rapport/money make it fine in the whole. When you’re able to take responsibility for tasks thus easing pressure from your boss or clients, you become very valuable. Responsibility meaning taking ownership, seeing things through to a conclusion.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

never, never, never ever to be written off by the likes of Herr Tubthumper who as far as I can see his only vice and usefulness in society is to fill his face with fancy foods and buy expensive running shoes ( or maybe inner tubes for his bicycle ...I can never remember quite what his relevance in life is ).

I think you might be confusing me with someone else regarding running shoes and inner tubes. What I do offer though. is astute and balanced poltical commentary, music, puns and dad jokes. You said your son wanted to dig holes.......did he dig the big hole which appeared in our road last week? The police are now looking into it.

 

[Bozza]

I think to be honest the single most important skill in life is the ability to influence (and dare I say manipulate) people. You don’t really learn that in education, and no amount of academic prowess can teach you that. Success in life has very little to do with intelligence / academic achievement in my experience, and everything to do with social skills and the ability to spot opportunities when they come along, and take advantage of them.

If I was given the opportunity to magic a skill into my offspring it wouldn’t be a language or a trade or a qualification, it would be the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do.

That sounds awful reading it back, but it isn’t meant to be. If you have that skill you can do anything.

I'm never one to miss a chance to post an affiliated link. So here's a relevant one.

https://amzn.to/3AbcL5Y

 

[WATFORD zero]

If by ‘stumbled across a lucky break’ you mean working in an industry for 17 years building up a skill, a reputation and a network, making contacts and expanding knowledge and experience, then finding the right investor and being brave enough to take the plunge and walk away from a well paid job with a young family, spending 2 years working 12 hour days trying to get a start-up off the ground whilst consistently flirting with bankruptcy, before finally turning a corner and then 12 months later being hit with a once in a generation pandemic that would have finished us off had it not been for the furlough scheme, then after scraping through that managing to put two years of growth together enabling us to aggressively hire 30-40 young people over the next two years, most of who were utterly incapable despite the hours and hours of training and development we put into them, before the whole thing falling apart again in 2023 due to investors pulling their money out of US Biotech, meaning having to make 20 people redundant in a day and then systematically cutting 2-3 people a month for the whole of last year, leaving us days from bankruptcy again at the start of 2024, before the market finally rallying and us scraping through all of this year with red numbers until eventually things seem to have stabilised just enough for us to finally start to think about growing again, and being nervous about going down the same route as before, then yes, it was an incredibly lucky break.

I mean, I’m not sure I’ve ever been offended on NSC before, but that was pretty bloody close.

I'm sorry, that was worded very poorly. I appreciate the amount of work, hassle and stress that goes into building businesses having done it a few times myself (getting a lucky break in my early twenties after pissing about since leaving school at 15 with a few GCEs) and then working my guts out employing a couple of hundred people directly (and hundreds more before when I was an employee). So I have some understanding of the issues with recruiting and building businesses. And I found making people redundant the worst, albeit there is normally no other alternative to the whole thing going down. I also inherited a number of offshore functions and found that rather than being easier they were even more stressful. Don't underestimate the advantages of being able to chat informally to someone over a coffee or a pint.

The point I was trying to make, albeit badly, was that by offshoring everything to countries that have far worse working conditions than the UK, you are taking that very opportunity from anyone else in your or my situation in order to make a few more quid. You've always come across on here as someone who cares deeply about the ethics of your business, who they employ and how they are treated.

I can't see what this new bill will be asking that you probably don't do anyway, and the day1 rights can easily be overcome with a 3 month temporary contract, prior to permanent, something I've done in the past. I let people go in their first week (and paid them the month) a number of times if I felt it wasn't working out. The employers NI increase will, at worst, only put us back to where we were in January when the last government decided to cut it.

And if you can retire early, all the stress will seem worth it, even if it's questionable at the time.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

You said yourself you recruit people with no real qualifications….if people can’t be arsed to get educated I’d suggest they probably won’t be arsed with work either. One thing qualifications or college does is demonstrate an ability to apply oneself.

Sweeping generalisation IMO (although you do say 'probably!)

Some of the hardest workers I know, had very few opportunities growing up, lack of a decent education more down to family/parents who couldn't give a about schooling.

Further education not an option, they barely made it through school, but by application and hard work they've done very well for themselves.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Sweeping generalisation IMO (although you do say 'probably!)

Some of the hardest workers I know, had very few opportunities growing up, lack of a decent education more down to family/parents who couldn't give a about schooling.

Further education not an option, they barely made it through school, but by application and hard work they've done very well for themselves.

I agree. It was a generalisation. One I fessed up to in a subsequent post to @Commander . I stand by the fact that if you obtain a qualification in anything, academic or vocational, it does demonstrate a level of application.....but not necessarily conversely i.e. if you do not obtain qualifications it's a measure of lack of application.