So Jesus did have a wife

[turienzo's lovechild]

The Iraq War was about George Bush's ego more than anything. His dad failed to get rid of Saddam Hussain so It was always going to be on cards once he became president. Predominantly Christian Countries attacking a mainly Muslim country could be seen as religious act. Religion causes conflict all over the world, always has and always will

so from the statement "religion causes EVERY war", how far down the scale are we now?

"religion causes SOME war"?

(and to say that religion was the cause of world war II is ridiculous)

 

[Stumpy Tim]

The three bigest killers of the last century were Hitler, Stalin and Mao tse Tung, they were all atheists so religion didn't cause them to slaughter millions.

Hitler wasn't an athiest - he was a Roman Catholic. Prayers were read for him every Sunday across European Roman Catholic churches until his death. Mein Kampf is also littered with Roman Catholic references.

Anyway, my viewpoint is that religion is slightly ridiculous, but if it wasn't religion wars would be started for some other tribal reason. Humans are a tribal animal by nature... always have been always will be.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Like i said before, I am talking about modern wars. The second world war WAS religion related. Try telling a Jew that it wasn't.

No. The German persecution of the Jews could be argued as religiously motivated. The war was not - Europe was generally anti-semetic, and Churchill himself was known to be anti-semetic. Britain got involved due to the invasion of Poland.

I actually asked my Granny, who was in the WAF, if the British population knew about the persecution of Jews in Germany - and she said it wasn't known... it wasn't known at the time what was happening.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Like i said before, I am talking about modern wars. The second world war WAS religion related. Try telling a Jew that it wasn't.

You're confusing the Jews(a racial and cultural group of people )with Judaism (a religion).

The Nazis targeted the Jewish peoples, not their religion. Thus it was a racial attack, not a religious one.


Statistically, communism has been responsible for the greatest losses of human life outside of diseases and natural disasters in modern times.

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

Hitler wasn't an athiest - he was a Roman Catholic. Prayers were read for him every Sunday across European Roman Catholic churches until his death. Mein Kampf is also littered with Roman Catholic references.

Anyway, my viewpoint is that religion is slightly ridiculous, but if it wasn't religion wars would be started for some other tribal reason. Humans are a tribal animal by nature... always have been always will be.

i would argue that he may have called himself christian (catholic), but his actions certainly didn't suggest that he was

if jesus had been about at the time i can't see them getting on to be honest

i agree with your second point though....most conflicts that could be accredited to religion would probably have happened anyway if religion didn't exist

 

[element]

This is a rubbish thread

Of course there was an 'er indoors

It's all in black and white in The Da Vinci Code

Innit

 

[Stumpy Tim]

i would argue that he may have called himself christian (catholic), but his actions certainly didn't suggest that he was

if jesus had been about at the time i can't see them getting on to be honest

Anti-semitism was official doctrine of the Catholic church until 1964 and preached, so it could be argued his actions were very catholic at the time. I don't believe Jesus would have got on with many organised religions to be honest... all that power and money.

 

[Acker79]

i would argue that he may have called himself christian (catholic), but his actions certainly didn't suggest that he was

if jesus had been about at the time i can't see them getting on to be honest

i agree with your second point though....most conflicts that could be accredited to religion would probably have happened anyway if religion didn't exist

If "do they act like jesus" was a marker of someone's beliefs more than their own statements of faith, then a large portion of people, particularly in America, who claim to be christian aren't really. The opposition to healthcare, the child abusing priests, the money grabbing televangelists, etc.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Hitler wasn't an athiest - he was a Roman Catholic. Prayers were read for him every Sunday across European Roman Catholic churches until his death. Mein Kampf is also littered with Roman Catholic references.

He wasn't even close to being a RC. He declared Nazism the state religion and replaced the bible with Mein Kamph.

The Nazi's treatment of RC clergy during the war is proof enough of his dislike for any group of people who posed a threat to his power.

 

[Acker79]

Some quotes from Hitler:

Hitler - 23 March, 1933 :

"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."

Hitler - 1 Feb, 1933 :

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

Hitler - 1941 :

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Hitler - 22 April, 1922 :

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

Hitler - 15 Feb 1933 :

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany's fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. "

Hitler - 24 Oct, 1933 :

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

Hitler - 26 Aug, 1934 :

" National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity."

Hitler - 12 April, 1922 :

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders."

Hitler - 27 October, 1928 :

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian."

Hitler - 23 November, 1939 :

" never lost my belief, in the midst of setbacks which were not spared me during my period of struggle. Providence has had the last word and brought me success."

Hitler - 24 February, 1939 :

"If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians."


Hitler's Speeches
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Anti-semitism was official doctrine of the Catholic church until 1964 and preached, so it could be argued his actions were very catholic at the time. I don't believe Jesus would have got on with many organised religions to be honest... all that power and money.

Strange point of view given the Jewish quarter said this at the time of WW2.

“In the most difficult hours which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See . . . was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews, sufferings which had been pointed out ot him by you after your visit to Transnistria. The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.” – Chief Rabbi Alexander Saffran of Bucharest, Romania, to Monsignor Andrea Cassulo, Papal Nuncio to Romania, April 7, 1944.

“The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.” – Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog of Palestine, February 28, 1945. What is more is that Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem, as well as the Rabbis of the Italian, United States, Romanian, and Hungarian Jewish communities came to Rome or sent messages thanking Pope Pius XII for the way in which he mobilized the Church in their behalf.

Doesn't read at all like anti-semetic actions or views.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Some quotes from Hitler:

Hitler - 23 March, 1933 :

"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."

Hitler - 1 Feb, 1933 :

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

Hitler - 1941 :

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Hitler - 22 April, 1922 :

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

Hitler - 15 Feb 1933 :

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany's fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. "

Hitler - 24 Oct, 1933 :

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

Hitler - 26 Aug, 1934 :

" National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity."

Hitler - 12 April, 1922 :

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders."

Hitler - 27 October, 1928 :

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian."

Hitler - 23 November, 1939 :

" never lost my belief, in the midst of setbacks which were not spared me during my period of struggle. Providence has had the last word and brought me success."

Hitler - 24 February, 1939 :

"If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians."


Hitler's Speeches
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

Which is all countered by him saying...

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

He merely paid lip service to the Christians Germans to ensure they didn't rise up against him.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Which is all countered by him saying...



He merely paid lip service to the Christians Germans to ensure they didn't rise up against him.

So those 20 quotes (I can't be bothered to count them all) are countered by ONE quote from you. That doesn't seem fair. It could be argued your one quote is countered better by the twenty other quotes.

 

[pastafarian]

didnt take this thread long to veer wildly off topic

 

[Biscuit]

Jim West, a professor and Baptist pastor in Tennessee, said: "A statement on a papyrus fragment isn't proof of anything. It's nothing more than a statement 'in thin air', without substantial context."

So, basically, the Bible then?

 

[jakarta]

I'm sure I have read somewhere that as soon as an online binfest ensues then Herr Schickelgruber will make an appearance!

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So those 20 quotes (I can't be bothered to count them all) are countered by ONE quote from you. That doesn't seem fair. It could be argued your one quote is countered better by the twenty other quotes.

Hitler was a politician who spun countless propaganda during his time.

He was always wary that he could face uprisings within Germany itself in those area where the RC population was highest. This nearly happened in Westphalia when they banned crucifixes in schools.

For such a powerful man who was apparently a "Roman Catholic" you'd have to question why it was that so many RC clergy were executed or imprisoned during the war if he was in fact a devoted catholic.

Hitler's faith wasn't of any christian belief, it was of a more natural pagan like belief in nature and that of only the strongest survive, thus his obsession with the master race.

 

[Acker79]

Which is all countered by him saying...

He merely paid lip service to the Christians Germans to ensure they didn't rise up against him.

As best I can find from brief research:
He was raised catholic.
As a young boy he wanted to become a priest (but then, so did Johnny Vegas)
He included christianity and the lord's work and god in a lot of what he did, including promoting "Positive Christianity".
Private opinions on christianity conflict, not helped by some german books being inaccurately translated, Goebbels describd him as deeply religious but anti-christian, and Albert Speer quoted him as bemoaning that Germany did not have the Japanese religion that made the Fatherland god. But General Engel quoted Hitler as saying "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He had a Catholic Priest as part of his inner circle, advising him on religious issues


I'm not arguing he was a Roman Catholic, or any specific sub section of christianity, but that he did believe in a god, which means he wasn't an atheist.

 

[The Large One]

Statistically, communism has been responsible for the greatest losses of human life outside of diseases and natural disasters in modern times.

Paranoid leaders with too much artillery at their disposal - maybe.

The political ideology of Communism - no.

 

[Questions]

Jesus never existed. It's a myth. There is no place left in society for religion. It is the cause of every war.

Not sure Hitler or Stalin waged war under a religious banner but they chalked up 50 million or so between them.