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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)







chickens

Have you considered masterly inactivity?
NSC Patron
Oct 12, 2022
2,784
Have the weapons been sold to Ukraine, or donated?
Even if they are sold, it's ok to agree to sell with restrictions, you don't have to buy them. If you then decide to ignore the restrictions, that's fine, but don't necessarily expect them to sell you more.

Well, I am obviously not privy to the fine detail of the US/Ukraine terms over the supply of these weapons. I hope at least that Ukraine have dismantled one of them and done some fairly quick reverse engineering. However, the US has not historically been a hugely altruistic nation, regardless of which parties leadership it’s under.

I suspect that if upfront payments have not been made, then there are agreements in place for debt repayments or agreements for US firms to be involved in rebuilding Ukraine, or preferential market access for the future.

America always gets paid somehow.
 


Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,447
Here is the news agency who reported on the Trump/Musk-Zelensky call:

There's some interesting stuff in there....


This may be the time to impart something I - really - didn't see coming. It was only a reply to a tweet, so there is no provenance. It could be nonsense.
The gist is, Zelensky floated the idea of Ukrainian troops replacing US troops in Europe.
 


raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,643
Wiltshire
That sounds very plausible. Very Trump. A powerplay. The implication of course being that Starlink access can be withdrawn at any time.
And was rumoured to have been withdrawn shortly before Ukraine made a missile attack on Crimea, oh over a year back now. ( and no, I don't remember where I read that!).
I have also seen a couple of articles with photos showing that the Russian military also has Starlink terminals.
 


raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,643
Wiltshire
Have the weapons been sold to Ukraine, or donated?
Even if they are sold, it's ok to agree to sell with restrictions, you don't have to buy them. If you then decide to ignore the restrictions, that's fine, but don't necessarily expect them to sell you more.
Your first line is a good question.
 






Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,447
And was rumoured to have been withdrawn shortly before Ukraine made a missile attack on Crimea, oh over a year back now. ( and no, I don't remember where I read that!).
I have also seen a couple of articles with photos showing that the Russian military also has Starlink terminals.
I wasn't aware of it being withdrawn. Or maybe I was, but I've forgotten it.
However, I do remember reading something about Russia having access to it.

Presumably, the same veiled threat (to remove access to it) can be made to Russia? I've no idea how it works, or if this would affect Ukraine on the front line as well.
 


Nobby

Well-known member
Sep 29, 2007
2,904
And was rumoured to have been withdrawn shortly before Ukraine made a missile attack on Crimea, oh over a year back now. ( and no, I don't remember where I read that!).
I have also seen a couple of articles with photos showing that the Russian military also has Starlink terminals.
It’s all very Catch 22 😨😨
 




Ethelwulf

Well-known member
Apr 6, 2020
2,328
West Worthing
I think Trump will try to make Ukraine give up Crimea and the Donbas and ask the world to acknowledge they are part of Russia and make Ukraine sign to never lay claim to those areas again and ask Russia to withdraw from all the other Ukraine territory it has grabbed . I think both russia and Ukraine will reject these terms
 




GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,445
Gloucester
Well, I am obviously not privy to the fine detail of the US/Ukraine terms over the supply of these weapons. I hope at least that Ukraine have dismantled one of them and done some fairly quick reverse engineering. However, the US has not historically been a hugely altruistic nation, regardless of which parties leadership it’s under.

I suspect that if upfront payments have not been made, then there are agreements in place for debt repayments or agreements for US firms to be involved in rebuilding Ukraine, or preferential market access for the future.

America always gets paid somehow.
Exactly. It's not that long ago that we stopped paying them for their help in WWII.
 








raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,643
Wiltshire
I think Trump will try to make Ukraine give up Crimea and the Donbas and ask the world to acknowledge they are part of Russia and make Ukraine sign to never lay claim to those areas again and ask Russia to withdraw from all the other Ukraine territory it has grabbed . I think both russia and Ukraine will reject these terms
That sounds like one very possible scenario that will be floated.
 




crookie

Well-known member
Jun 14, 2013
3,388
Back in Sussex
Hindsight obviously but was thinking this morning about last years unsuccessful ukrainian counteroffensive in the South. All these Western tanks and IFV's rolling into minefields and deep defensive positions and getting nowhere. Then look at how easily they burst through the lightly defended Kursk border. All that offensive capability wasted, when instead they could have taken a huge amount of Russian territory with it and totally thrown Putin off balance. Wishful thinking I suppose
 


crookie

Well-known member
Jun 14, 2013
3,388
Back in Sussex
I think Trump will try to make Ukraine give up Crimea and the Donbas and ask the world to acknowledge they are part of Russia and make Ukraine sign to never lay claim to those areas again and ask Russia to withdraw from all the other Ukraine territory it has grabbed . I think both russia and Ukraine will reject these terms
Realistically for Ukraine, that's probably the best they can hope for. Get their Black Sea ports back, and then move towards NATO and EU membership, but yes I agree, Russia won't go for that
 




raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,643
Wiltshire
Here is the news agency who reported on the Trump/Musk-Zelensky call:

There's some interesting stuff in there....


This may be the time to impart something I - really - didn't see coming. It was only a reply to a tweet, so there is no provenance. It could be nonsense.
The gist is, Zelensky floated the idea of Ukrainian troops replacing US troops in Europe.
That was very interesting. Did you follow the middle link to Trump's "I'm f***ing crazy!" Foreign Policy piece. Interesting and even entertaining in places.
 




raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,643
Wiltshire
Hindsight obviously but was thinking this morning about last years unsuccessful ukrainian counteroffensive in the South. All these Western tanks and IFV's rolling into minefields and deep defensive positions and getting nowhere. Then look at how easily they burst through the lightly defended Kursk border. All that offensive capability wasted, when instead they could have taken a huge amount of Russian territory with it and totally thrown Putin off balance. Wishful thinking I suppose
Yeah ☹️. I guess they were 101% focused on trying to reclaim their own land. The Kursk 'special military operation' was certainly a surprise.
 


raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,643
Wiltshire
I wasn't aware of it being withdrawn. Or maybe I was, but I've forgotten it.
However, I do remember reading something about Russia having access to it.

Presumably, the same veiled threat (to remove access to it) can be made to Russia? I've no idea how it works, or if this would affect Ukraine on the front line as well.
OK maybe not withdrawn (although some writers still maintain it was) but not enabled to assist Ukraine.
I found the BBC version, which must be the true one...😉(five second search!)
 


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