[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Eric the meek]

 

[chickens]

Have the weapons been sold to Ukraine, or donated?
Even if they are sold, it's ok to agree to sell with restrictions, you don't have to buy them. If you then decide to ignore the restrictions, that's fine, but don't necessarily expect them to sell you more.

Well, I am obviously not privy to the fine detail of the US/Ukraine terms over the supply of these weapons. I hope at least that Ukraine have dismantled one of them and done some fairly quick reverse engineering. However, the US has not historically been a hugely altruistic nation, regardless of which parties leadership it’s under.

I suspect that if upfront payments have not been made, then there are agreements in place for debt repayments or agreements for US firms to be involved in rebuilding Ukraine, or preferential market access for the future.

America always gets paid somehow.

 

[Eric the meek]

Here is the news agency who reported on the Trump/Musk-Zelensky call:

There's some interesting stuff in there....

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/08/musk-trump-zelensky-ukraine-call

This may be the time to impart something I - really - didn't see coming. It was only a reply to a tweet, so there is no provenance. It could be nonsense.
The gist is, Zelensky floated the idea of Ukrainian troops replacing US troops in Europe.

 

[raymondo]

That sounds very plausible. Very Trump. A powerplay. The implication of course being that Starlink access can be withdrawn at any time.

And was rumoured to have been withdrawn shortly before Ukraine made a missile attack on Crimea, oh over a year back now. ( and no, I don't remember where I read that!).
I have also seen a couple of articles with photos showing that the Russian military also has Starlink terminals.

 

[raymondo]

Have the weapons been sold to Ukraine, or donated?
Even if they are sold, it's ok to agree to sell with restrictions, you don't have to buy them. If you then decide to ignore the restrictions, that's fine, but don't necessarily expect them to sell you more.

Your first line is a good question.

 

[brighton_dave]

It feels so right, but so wrong to have smiled at this.

 

[Eric the meek]

And was rumoured to have been withdrawn shortly before Ukraine made a missile attack on Crimea, oh over a year back now. ( and no, I don't remember where I read that!).
I have also seen a couple of articles with photos showing that the Russian military also has Starlink terminals.

I wasn't aware of it being withdrawn. Or maybe I was, but I've forgotten it.
However, I do remember reading something about Russia having access to it.

Presumably, the same veiled threat (to remove access to it) can be made to Russia? I've no idea how it works, or if this would affect Ukraine on the front line as well.

 

[Nobby]

And was rumoured to have been withdrawn shortly before Ukraine made a missile attack on Crimea, oh over a year back now. ( and no, I don't remember where I read that!).
I have also seen a couple of articles with photos showing that the Russian military also has Starlink terminals.

It’s all very Catch 22

 

[Ethelwulf]

I think Trump will try to make Ukraine give up Crimea and the Donbas and ask the world to acknowledge they are part of Russia and make Ukraine sign to never lay claim to those areas again and ask Russia to withdraw from all the other Ukraine territory it has grabbed . I think both russia and Ukraine will reject these terms

 

[raymondo]

That's an awful lot of debris from the100% successful Russian defensive strike on the drone

 

[GT49er]

Well, I am obviously not privy to the fine detail of the US/Ukraine terms over the supply of these weapons. I hope at least that Ukraine have dismantled one of them and done some fairly quick reverse engineering. However, the US has not historically been a hugely altruistic nation, regardless of which parties leadership it’s under.

I suspect that if upfront payments have not been made, then there are agreements in place for debt repayments or agreements for US firms to be involved in rebuilding Ukraine, or preferential market access for the future.

America always gets paid somehow.

Exactly. It's not that long ago that we stopped paying them for their help in WWII.

 

[raymondo]

It feels so right, but so wrong to have smiled at this.

Yes, something that would normally be a tragic event, has now been normalized (in my mind) because of what Putin has done to Ukraine.

 

[raymondo]

It’s all very Catch 22

Yes, it feels like that sometimes

 

[raymondo]

I think Trump will try to make Ukraine give up Crimea and the Donbas and ask the world to acknowledge they are part of Russia and make Ukraine sign to never lay claim to those areas again and ask Russia to withdraw from all the other Ukraine territory it has grabbed . I think both russia and Ukraine will reject these terms

That sounds like one very possible scenario that will be floated.

 

[crookie]

Hindsight obviously but was thinking this morning about last years unsuccessful ukrainian counteroffensive in the South. All these Western tanks and IFV's rolling into minefields and deep defensive positions and getting nowhere. Then look at how easily they burst through the lightly defended Kursk border. All that offensive capability wasted, when instead they could have taken a huge amount of Russian territory with it and totally thrown Putin off balance. Wishful thinking I suppose

 

[crookie]

I think Trump will try to make Ukraine give up Crimea and the Donbas and ask the world to acknowledge they are part of Russia and make Ukraine sign to never lay claim to those areas again and ask Russia to withdraw from all the other Ukraine territory it has grabbed . I think both russia and Ukraine will reject these terms

Realistically for Ukraine, that's probably the best they can hope for. Get their Black Sea ports back, and then move towards NATO and EU membership, but yes I agree, Russia won't go for that

 

[Eric the meek]

Ukrainian propaganda is just so much better than the Russian variety.

 

[raymondo]

Here is the news agency who reported on the Trump/Musk-Zelensky call:

There's some interesting stuff in there....

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/08/musk-trump-zelensky-ukraine-call

This may be the time to impart something I - really - didn't see coming. It was only a reply to a tweet, so there is no provenance. It could be nonsense.
The gist is, Zelensky floated the idea of Ukrainian troops replacing US troops in Europe.

That was very interesting. Did you follow the middle link to Trump's "I'm f***ing crazy!" Foreign Policy piece. Interesting and even entertaining in places.

 

[raymondo]

Hindsight obviously but was thinking this morning about last years unsuccessful ukrainian counteroffensive in the South. All these Western tanks and IFV's rolling into minefields and deep defensive positions and getting nowhere. Then look at how easily they burst through the lightly defended Kursk border. All that offensive capability wasted, when instead they could have taken a huge amount of Russian territory with it and totally thrown Putin off balance. Wishful thinking I suppose

Yeah . I guess they were 101% focused on trying to reclaim their own land. The Kursk 'special military operation' was certainly a surprise.

 

[raymondo]

I wasn't aware of it being withdrawn. Or maybe I was, but I've forgotten it.
However, I do remember reading something about Russia having access to it.

Presumably, the same veiled threat (to remove access to it) can be made to Russia? I've no idea how it works, or if this would affect Ukraine on the front line as well.

OK maybe not withdrawn (although some writers still maintain it was) but not enabled to assist Ukraine.
I found the BBC version, which must be the true one...(five second search!)

Elon Musk says he withheld Starlink over Crimea to avoid escalation

A senior Ukrainian official says this enabled Russian attacks and accuses him of "committing evil".

www.bbc.co.uk