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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
Weststander
Well-known member
Here are the actual facts on the language issue debated here. Not from google, but from the Russian-speaking Ukrainian refugee who’s now part of our family.
She’s clear that before Putin illegally took control of Crimea and surreptitiously parts of The Donbas in 2014, the overwhelming majority of Russian speakers in the east felt Ukrainian, they love their country. They just happened to speak Russian. Ukraine was a bilingual country.
So appalled are they about the 8 years insurgency, that en masse they’re all learning Ukrainian and ditching Russian culture. It hurts, but they’re driven to do this. It’s gone the way the foreign dictator Putin would not have wanted.
@raymondo with your real world knowledge of eastern Ukraine, what are your thoughts?
She’s clear that before Putin illegally took control of Crimea and surreptitiously parts of The Donbas in 2014, the overwhelming majority of Russian speakers in the east felt Ukrainian, they love their country. They just happened to speak Russian. Ukraine was a bilingual country.
So appalled are they about the 8 years insurgency, that en masse they’re all learning Ukrainian and ditching Russian culture. It hurts, but they’re driven to do this. It’s gone the way the foreign dictator Putin would not have wanted.
@raymondo with your real world knowledge of eastern Ukraine, what are your thoughts?
Oh, and that'll make him change his mind? Or not.....and then what?
It might.
Losing his entire Black Sea Fleet and his forces in Ukraine is a pretty big downside.
But it also might not.
Indeed....it might not.
smiler
Well-known member
And the rest of Western Europe!
I doubt it would stop there, if it came to it.
Wardy's twin
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2014
- 8,872
ok - they are second or 3rd generation Ukainians born to Russian ancestors... that does sound clumsy.....
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,025
it is, thats why we say "nth generation $nationality". like an Italian descendant in US might call themselves 3rd generation Italian. they are also American.
Hi @Weststander The statement from your Ukrainian refugee doesn't surprise me at all. We don't have family or friends that far East in Donbas so my/our family experiences are from the Central/East, Zaporizhzhia City and surroundings, but Russian is my in-laws first language. Certainly the majority of Russian speakers there (and they are the majority linguistically) feel very strongly Ukrainian: this would be c. 90% true for the 'younger' generation, and here I'm saying 55- 60 years and under. The younger one goes the stronger the Ukrainian allegiance now.
For the much older generation (such as my father in law, now 83) it's much more complicated. He was happily a Russian speaking Ukrainian as I believe are the majority of his generation, but when the invasion happened I believe their thoughts go along the lines..."see, our silly younger generation think they can have western freedom and democracy in this country, but they don't know the Russians, they will never allow it, and now they are here to stop it". So, it's not that they wanted to be 'rescued', they were quite content, but for some of that generation it's just like an acceptance that they live in a borderland and here we go again. The older generation that I have met won't ditch their Russian culture, but the younger ones will I believe. For example, one of our nieces now refuses to speak Russian even though she is fully bilingual.
Also (and one may find this hard to believe...) the occupation in the south happened very fast, and the Russians were very quick to start Russifying Southern Zaporizhzhia oblast. This meant allowing only Russian State TV broadcasts, severing Ukrainian mobile phone networks ( I'm not a technician so don't understand the ins and outs). So, from early days, our in-laws, their villagers and surrounding villages have not seen our daily dose of genocide and war crimes (such as Mariupol and Bucha) - they see Russian propaganda TV - it's so hard for their older generation, who were exhausted with their rural lives anyway, to understand or even believe what's really happened.
And, when Ukraine gained it's independence in 1991, my in-laws (and many of their generation) lost all of their savings that were in the Moscow Bank, lost much of their earned pension entitlement, and much of the infrastructure in their cooperative farming village fell apart soon after independence. This has been extremely hard for the older generation and many of them known to my wife say they wished independence had never happened...because it has made their later years very hard. So, there's a complex mix of feelings for the older rural generation that I'm familiar with...they just want to be left alone to tend their crops and chickens...they really don't care much any more who is in charge.
The younger and middle generation in the village have some access to world news via the internet, so they understand the war crimes committed and some have no doubt explained this to their older parents (who may well not believe stuff that contradicts Russian TV so much)etc...but basically they keep it to themselves because it doesn't pay to speak loudly when occupied.
Sorry, I've gone off piste (a lot!) when you were probably hoping for a one sentence answer
. And I probably haven't even answered the question
. I would ask my wife for her opinion but she's just very angry about the situation so my ramblings will have to suffice, but I hope they give some useful background. Cheers for now.
Weststander
Well-known member
‘Our’ Ukrainian refugee said her unlucky mates in the occupied territories are having to pretend to be pleased that they’ve been forcibly handed Russian passports, they sing the Russian national anthem with a fake smile.Hi @Weststander The statement from your Ukrainian refugee doesn't surprise me at all. We don't have family or friends that far East in Donbas so my/our family experiences are from the Central/East, Zaporizhzhia City and surroundings, but Russian is my in-laws first language. Certainly the majority of Russian speakers there (and they are the majority linguistically) feel very strongly Ukrainian: this would be c. 90% true for the 'younger' generation, and here I'm saying 55- 60 years and under. The younger one goes the stronger the Ukrainian allegiance now.
For the much older generation (such as my father in law, now 83) it's much more complicated. He was happily a Russian speaking Ukrainian as I believe are the majority of his generation, but when the invasion happened I believe their thoughts go along the lines..."see, our silly younger generation think they can have western freedom and democracy in this country, but they don't know the Russians, they will never allow it, and now they are here to stop it". So, it's not that they wanted to be 'rescued', they were quite content, but for some of that generation it's just like an acceptance that they live in a borderland and here we go again. The older generation that I have met won't ditch their Russian culture, but the younger ones will I believe. For example, one of our nieces now refuses to speak Russian even though she is fully bilingual.
Also (and one may find this hard to believe...) the occupation in the south happened very fast, and the Russians were very quick to start Russifying Southern Zaporizhzhia oblast. This meant allowing only Russian State TV broadcasts, severing Ukrainian mobile phone networks ( I'm not a technician so don't understand the ins and outs). So, from early days, our in-laws, their villagers and surrounding villages have not seen our daily dose of genocide and war crimes (such as Mariupol and Bucha) - they see Russian propaganda TV - it's so hard for their older generation, who were exhausted with their rural lives anyway, to understand or even believe what's really happened.
And, when Ukraine gained it's independence in 1991, my in-laws (and many of their generation) lost all of their savings that were in the Moscow Bank, lost much of their earned pension entitlement, and much of the infrastructure in their cooperative farming village fell apart soon after independence. This has been extremely hard for the older generation and many of them known to my wife say they wished independence had never happened...because it has made their later years very hard. So, there's a complex mix of feelings for the older rural generation that I'm familiar with...they just want to be left alone to tend their crops and chickens...they really don't care much any more who is in charge.
The younger and middle generation in the village have some access to world news via the internet, so they understand the war crimes committed and some have no doubt explained this to their older parents (who may well not believe stuff that contradicts Russian TV so much)etc...but basically they keep it to themselves because it doesn't pay to speak loudly when occupied.
Sorry, I've gone off piste (a lot!) when you were probably hoping for a one sentence answer
They want to live. Those who don’t have their cars and furniture stolen, get beaten to a pulp and worse. Female children and women of literally any age are raped. The hidden psyche of potential barbarians simply doesn’t leave some cultures, no matter the century. This is 1941-1945 all over again (Nazis and Soviets committing atrocities) or the Balkans 1990’s.
They’re predicting a scorched earth policy by Putin when he loses. Cities systematically destroyed, prime agricultural soil poisoned. They’re dealing with an evil piece of shit.
On a positive, she listed the following friendly nations as incredible. Singling them out because they acted on day 1 with tangible help, she felt Kyiv and more would’ve been lost without them:
Canada
USA
UK
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Wardy's twin
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2014
- 8,872
Thats how I used it originally. ..
Sirnormangall
Well-known member
- Sep 21, 2017
- 3,184
Many thanks to you and @raymondo for your posts today - very interesting / insightful to hear the views of ordinary Ukrainians. We can only hope that the day when they can return to a normal life in their country isn’t too far away - though even when that happens it will take many years and £billions to rebuild and make safe.
Weststander
Well-known member
I’ve learnt so much else, what a beautiful country it is. Lazily I had thought of it as just colossal grain fields.
We hope to visit one day, soon.
It's appalling - is your refugee able to contact her friends there on a daily basis? and does she have family still there?
My wife has real problems talking to her parents, maybe once a fortnight through a neighbour's phone, and feedback from them is sketchy. It seems that the Russian military are not aggressive in their village (thankfully) - they ransacked shops and pharmacy in the early days but now have regular supplies from the south.
We believe they have been forced to take Russian passports, and local teachers are physically threatened if they
It's appalling - as you say the barbaric psyche is still there in big way, encouraged by their leadership.
It must be very difficult for your refugee, still adjustment being here,and is she in daily contact with friends and family still? traumatising all round.
My wife only gets to talk to her mum fortnightly and feedback is sketchy - we're not hearing of local atrocities so maybe they've lucked out with the Russian soldiers there, or maybe our elderly parents just don't know.
But it terrifies me that if the Ukrainian military try to retake this area (which we hope they do...) that each village could end up like Bucha. Horrific to think of it.
Weststander
Well-known member
I’ll ask next time we chat.
The pockets of some dead Russian soldiers have been found crammed with looted jewellery. It was a similar story in Chechna, their officers condone, encourage and participate in unspeakable deeds.
Well no one would say it like that. They are Ukrainians, born to Ukrainians (since their parents are also Ukrainians). Instead, you could just say they are Ukrainians with Russian ancestors. Not that clumsy.
No, that would be incorrect. A 3rd generation Italian would be someone born in Italy, to Italian parents, but with grandparents who were immigrants.
But chickening out because it 'might not' would completely surrender whatever he wants to Putin. Risk - but the bigger risk would be not taking it.
A very reasonable and confortable definition, which sadly diesn't apply to some people - third generation born and raised in England - when their great grandparents' country is playing England at Lords or the Oval. A cataclysmic failure of multi-culturalism as an alernative to integration and inclusivity.
