[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Deportivo Seagull]

I felt the same - Macron walked the tightrope as well as could be expected in a room full of Trump acolytes

The problem that Trump now has is that no one from Europe trust him, nor do they see the need to toady up to him because he doesn’t keep any promises. His biggest threat is removing US military from Europe and I doubt that that will gain much traction with the military.

 

[Eric the meek]

I felt the same - Macron walked the tightrope as well as could be expected in a room full of Trump acolytes

Macron did well.

Here he is, telling the US that if Russia violates the peace agreement, he US will have to step in.
'Bugger' - Trump.

 

[raymondo]

Too bad it's more about minerals than human suffering now.

Exactly. I wake up every morning hoping that Trump and Musk have disappeared off the planet.

 

[Bodian]

My concern with this is if Trump sees Europe protecting Ukraine from his attempted pillage, he’ll throw his weight fully behind Putin.
The European leaders need to keep him on board by letting him think he’s getting what he wants for as long as possible.

Indeed. And as Putin has referenced the minerals in Russian occupied parts of Ukraine, Trump will be doubling down on his comments that Russia 'deserve' to keep these lands as they have fought for them (paraphrased - can't recall his exact words). Then he can bully Ukraine into a minerals deal on one side, and do a deal with Russia for their new ones as well.

As another poster says - it's nothing about peace now, it's all about what deals Trump can get for minerals.

 

[SouthSaxon]

I think it's a move to attempt to keep the occupied territories.

If so, this might be good news, for it suggests that Russia thinks that keeping the occupied territories is not a foregone conclusion.

A lot of what Putin does is aimed at sowing division. How about this?

1. Trump wants minerals and money from both sides
2. Europe wants Ukraine to get its land back
3. Europe has made noises about its own minerals deal with Ukraine
4. Putin offers to sell Trump the minerals from Ukraine’s land

Next: Putin hopes Europe objects to 4 on the basis of 2. He then tells Trump Europe is sabotaging both of his deals (3 gazumps 1)?

 

[raymondo]

The problem that Trump now has is that no one from Europe trust him, nor do they see the need to toady up to him because he doesn’t keep any promises. His biggest threat is removing US military from Europe and I doubt that that will gain much traction with the military.

It would be a problem for a normal person, but I don't think Trump gives a shit. He seems to enjoy the negative reactions he's getting, in the sense that he'll just keep raising the stakes.
The best thing would be if Europe can work hard to make TRump irrelevant to Ukraine and Europe's safety . The problem we may seriously have to face up to though is TRump and Putin normalising relations, resulting in sanctions being dropped and Russian oil, gas, minerals being allowed to flow and to increase Russia's income again.
It really could become Europe/UK plus willing helpers (Canada, Oz etc), versus the Autocratic Dictator alliance of Russia/US ... it even feels we're halfway there. I think America may actually wake up at some point, but there's a ton of damage could be done on the way.

 

[Triggaaar]

The problem that Trump now has is that no one from Europe trust him, nor do they see the need to toady up to him because he doesn’t keep any promises. His biggest threat is removing US military from Europe and I doubt that that will gain much traction with the military.

Except that he's in charge of the military, and any high ranking general who disagrees with him gets fired.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Except that he's in charge of the military, and any high ranking general who disagrees with him gets fired.

They Should answer to the con situation and as the federal government has stuck two fingers up at Musk then I suspect the military will as well. He’s a coward and when someone stands up to him he goes elsewhere to be an arse. The biggest say in this is the defence industry who will not want any of their kit getting into putin or North Korean hands. It’s all about the IP.

 

[Washie]

Except that he's in charge of the military, and any high ranking general who disagrees with him gets fired.

Except those high in the military already have the respect of those around and beneath. Firing generals without proper cause sows discord in the ranks. Too many, the military may then start to have rifts.

 

[Eric the meek]

A lot of what Putin does is aimed at sowing division. How about this?

1. Trump wants minerals and money from both sides
2. Europe wants Ukraine to get its land back
3. Europe has made noises about its own minerals deal with Ukraine
4. Putin offers to sell Trump the minerals from Ukraine’s land

Next: Putin hopes Europe objects to 4 on the basis of 2. He then tells Trump Europe is sabotaging both of his deals (3 gazumps 1)?

Yes, good point about the division.

Going back a stage or two, but further on in the whole peace process, I'm really concerned about Trump's support for an election.
The aim would be to identify 'irregularities', challenge Zelensky's legitimacy, install a puppet, work on the destabilisation and break the unity of Ukraine, and hey presto, Putin has the whole of Ukraine under his sphere of influence.

 

[raymondo]

Have a look at the Facebook page 'Occupy democrats'. It showcases how non lobotomised yanks view the orange one, and how ashamed they are of his desire to climb into bed with Mr Genocide

I enjoyed that, took a 15 minute read down the list. It's a good mix of very serious stuff, plus some excellent humour. Many thanks

 

[raymondo]

Except those high in the military already have the respect of those around and beneath. Firing generals without proper cause sows discord in the ranks. Too many, the military may then start to have rifts.

A military coup in the US wouldn't be a bad idea at the moment!!

 

[Swegulls]

Exactly. I wake up every morning hoping that Trump and Musk have disappeared off the planet.

Yeah, same here. Unfortunately they have lately found some new nice friends to play with: "The 16 that voted against Monday’s resolution alongside the U.S. and Russia were Israel, Haiti, Hungary, Palau and the Marshall Islands; the African countries Burkina Faso, Burundi, the Central African Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Niger and Sudan; and Belarus, North Korea, Syria, Eritrea, Mali and Nicaragua, six countries that voted against the 2023 resolution".

The whole thing is insane, thank god it's gameday and 90+ minutes of something else to think about.

 

[armchairclubber]

!PS:
What do we mean by 'Russian asset'?
The word asset means something useful. So when we use this term it simply means that Trump is useful to Russia. This is undeniable fact, whether he was actively recruited or not. For whatever reason, Trump sees his duty as furthering Russia's agenda. Amazing when you think his formative years and young adulthood were spent during the Cold War and intense American Russophobia.

Sorry to keep harping on about this!

...Not at all.
I agree this is where more understanding and thought is required.
It's becoming a bit of an old trope that I'm getting a bit tired of, tbh.
Almost like it's (Russian asset) propaganda in itself

To give another perspective, It makes little difference really which of these monsters is behind or how they make the deal.
Whether it be Musk,Trump, Putin.
Have they already revealed their colours to you?
It's more the rise of global "fascism" and how it may one day be staring you straight in the face.

I posted this on the Trump thread several days ago, it's just as relevant here. I think George Monbiot sees it, even if it was recorded before more Russian/Putin involvement became a factor.

 

[raymondo]

We've got it all wrong. We've misjudged Russians. Have a look at their community spirit with their fellow Russians:

Incredible.

 

[fly high]

Exactly. I wake up every morning hoping that Trump and Musk have disappeared off the planet.

I just can't believe this is happening for real & isn't just a really bad dream.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Yes, good point about the division.

Going back a stage or two, but further on in the whole peace process, I'm really concerned about Trump's support for an election.
The aim would be to identify 'irregularities', challenge Zelensky's legitimacy, install a puppet, work on the destabilisation and break the unity of Ukraine, and hey presto, Putin has the whole of Ukraine under his sphere of influence.

Exactly. Putin may be calculating that he’s better off making concessions. Appear very reasonable, go for peace, protect his own status….go back to the subversion strategy under the radar, as you say.

One thorn in his side could be that Trump is so desperate for attention that he’s happy to say the quiet bit loud.

 

[raymondo]

Apologies if fixtures, this thread moves so fast to page back and see . Anyway, there is at least SOME airtime on US TV pointing out what a total scumbag Trump is. It's worth a watch... although Trump supporters wouldn't enjoy the pace and gravitas of the delivery.

 

[armchairclubber]

Apologies if fixtures, this thread moves so fast to page back and see . Anyway, there is at least SOME airtime on US TV pointing out what a total scumbag Trump is. It's worth a watch... although Trump supporters wouldn't enjoy the pace and gravitas of the delivery.

Was just going to post myself

 

[raymondo]

I just can't believe this is happening for real & isn't just a really bad dream.

Trump and Musk need to be taken down (by intelligent journos?), it's lying in plain sight, hour after hour... democratically, by Congress etc would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.
Too many people in the US are enjoying it as theatre, wondering what's going to happen the next day.
Wake up, schmucks, it's real.