[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[portlock seagull]

Hegseth wants Ukraine to give up Crimea.

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says – Europe live

Peter Hegseth is addressing the Ukraine Defence Contact Group’s meeting in Brussels

www.theguardian.com

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says​

Continuing his speech, US defence secretary Peter Hegseth calls for “realistic assessment of the battlefield.”


We want a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine’s pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.


Chasing this illusory goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering.

He’s right though.

 

[beorhthelm]

half heard comment earlier on CNBC that Ukraine expect to concede some territory, more concerned about future security and admission to NATO.

 

[Triggaaar]

Hegseth wants Ukraine to give up Crimea.

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says – Europe live

Peter Hegseth is addressing the Ukraine Defence Contact Group’s meeting in Brussels

www.theguardian.com

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says​

Continuing his speech, US defence secretary Peter Hegseth calls for “realistic assessment of the battlefield.”


We want a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine’s pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.


Chasing this illusory goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering.

No doubt in 1941 he'd have said that returning all of France to pre-1940 borders was an unrealistic objective.

 

[raymondo]

Yes, there's lots of good stuff in there.

I'm drawn to Ukrainian drone production topping 2.5 million. That's 6800 every single day.

Elsewhere, from Prof. Gerdes, we learn that General Kellogg's daughter has been doing humanitarian work in Ukraine for the past two years.
We shall see.

Both items you highlight are extremely important!

 

[hampshirebrightonboy]

He’s right though.

Surely it's up to Ukrainians to decide

 

[raymondo]

Hegseth wants Ukraine to give up Crimea.

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says – Europe live

Peter Hegseth is addressing the Ukraine Defence Contact Group’s meeting in Brussels

www.theguardian.com

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says​

Continuing his speech, US defence secretary Peter Hegseth calls for “realistic assessment of the battlefield.”


We want a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine’s pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.


Chasing this illusory goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering.

Not a very good opening negotiation tactic

 

[fly high]

Not a very good opening negotiation tactic

Sounds more like capitulation, must be music to Putin's ear. His speech also seems they are turning their back on Europe but still wants to be part of NATO! Western governments really do need to get their heads round the fact that we are already at war with Russia & Ukraine is currently our shield. We must do much, much more. Reeves's budget it out the window, like it or not defense spending must take priority, especially as Trump seems to be turning into an imperialist fascist maniac with his fascist sidekick Musk.

 

[vegster]

Sounds more like capitulation, must be music to Putin's ear. His speech also seems they are turning their back on Europe but still wants to be part of NATO! Western governments really do need to get their heads round the fact that we are already at war with Russia & Ukraine is currently our shield. We must do much, much more. Reeves's budget it out the window, like it or not defense spending must take priority, especially as Trump seems to be turning into an imperialist fascist maniac with his fascist sidekick Musk.

Yes, looks like he's washed his hands of Ukraine and NATO. There was always a suspicion something like this would happen under Trump as his whole outlook is contrary and confrontational and, ultimately, misguided and ridiculous.....and to think years back we thought Ronald Reagan was going to be an absolute disaster ! Ukraine and the West are in big trouble now.

 

[raymondo]

Sounds more like capitulation, must be music to Putin's ear. His speech also seems they are turning their back on Europe but still wants to be part of NATO! Western governments really do need to get their heads round the fact that we are already at war with Russia & Ukraine is currently our shield. We must do much, much more. Reeves's budget it out the window, like it or not defense spending must take priority, especially as Trump seems to be turning into an imperialist fascist maniac with his fascist sidekick Musk.

Well indeed. So, if NATO isn't going to function fully for European defense, then the US can f*CK off when it wants European support (again).

Hegseth wants Ukraine to give up Crimea.

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says – Europe live

Peter Hegseth is addressing the Ukraine Defence Contact Group’s meeting in Brussels

www.theguardian.com

Returning to pre-2014 Ukraine borders ‘unrealistic’ and ‘illusory’ goal, US defence secretary says​

Continuing his speech, US defence secretary Peter Hegseth calls for “realistic assessment of the battlefield.”


We want a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine’s pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.


Chasing this illusory goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering.

I just read the whole piece which I didn't realise is more about what Trump said than Hegseth.
Here's hoping Trump has the good manners to have an equally warm call with Zelenskiy, discussing the warm future relations these two great nations can have and how Ukraine's military can form a backbone of a strong and safe Europe...as warm and respectful a call as he clearly held with the murdering, genocidal, pathological lier that is Putin (of the big boys club).

 

[Eric the meek]

The first phone calls have taken place.

First between Trump and Putin. Then between Trump and Zelenskyy.
I don't think any additional details around the content of the proposed peace agreement were shared in the public domain.

A difficult time. Good luck to all.

 

[raymondo]

 

[raymondo]

Seems to me the US shouldn't get any rare earths from Ukraine if they're not going to commit to future weaponry supplies.
Hurry up and step into the gap, Europe, up your game VERY quickly. European Military Alliance starts now, RIP NATO.

 

[beorhthelm]

Not a very good opening negotiation tactic

depends if thats the cost of opening serious negotiations. probably already know there's certain red lines that will result in any talks ending, puts that in the public domain.

 

[raymondo]

depends if thats the cost of opening serious negotiations. probably already know there's certain red lines that will result in any talks ending, puts that in the public domain.

Ok, but seems that Putin's red lines (if this is one, probably yes) are accepted first and posted as a stake in the ground.
Will Trump 'allow' Zelenskiy to have any red lines... I suspect not.
Might is right, let's appease the aggressor,and pressure Ukraine (probably).

You know I'm not having a go at you!! it's just frustrating. No doubt we'll get updates and threats from Trump, Vance etc on social media .

 

[Eric the meek]

Ok, but seems that Putin's red lines (if this is one, probably yes) are accepted first and posted as a stake in the ground.
Will Trump 'allow' Zelenskiy to have any red lines... I suspect not.
Might is right, let's appease the aggressor,and pressure Ukraine (probably).

You know I'm not having a go at you!! it's just frustrating. No doubt we'll get updates and threats from Trump, Vance etc on social media .

We don't know the details of the proposed agreement yet. That's what I was trying to convey earlier.

All the reports are just trying to fill an empty space with filler. There's no detail. Zelenskyy himself said that his team are going to read it for two days.

 

[Triggaaar]

Ok, but seems that Putin's red lines (if this is one, probably yes) are accepted first and posted as a stake in the ground.
Will Trump 'allow' Zelenskiy to have any red lines... I suspect not.
Might is right, let's appease the aggressor,and pressure Ukraine (probably).

You know I'm not having a go at you!! it's just frustrating. No doubt we'll get updates and threats from Trump, Vance etc on social media .

It's all a side show. The war will continue, we just need to make sure that 1) sanctions on Russia remain, 2) we arm Ukraine as much as possible, and 3) we arm ourselves.

 

[raymondo]

Yep, guys, cheers . I need to stop reacting to each 'announcement'. Difficult to keep emotions in check with the hourly mood music today.
I'll look out for business as usual, as Ukraine hits a couple of oil refineries tonight ++=

 

[Eric the meek]

It's all a side show. The war will continue, we just need to make sure that 1) sanctions on Russia remain, 2) we arm Ukraine as much as possible, and 3) we arm ourselves.

I don't know whether I want you to be correct or not.

There's a part of me that wants the peace agreement to be a success, even though it - may - not be optimal (according to us) for Ukraine.

But there's a part of me that wants the war to continue. Ukraine is taking the war right into Russia, and the Russian people. 2.5 million drones a year (made in many, distributed places), are going to make a difference. Russia cannot defend itself against them. It would be a real shame to call a halt to it now.

 

[Eric the meek]

Yep, guys, cheers . I need to stop reacting to each 'announcement'. Difficult to keep emotions in check with the hourly mood music today.
I'll look out for business as usual, as Ukraine hits a couple of oil refineries tonight ++=

We are all with you.

 

[Commander]

I don't know whether I want you to be correct or not.

There's a part of me that wants the peace agreement to be a success, even though it - may - not be optimal (according to us) for Ukraine.

But there's a part of me that wants the war to continue. Ukraine is taking the war right into Russia, and the Russian people. 2.5 million drones a year (made in many, distributed places), are going to make a difference. Russia cannot defend itself against them. It would be a real shame to call a halt to it now.

That’s where I am at as well. I obviously want this war to stop immediately. But if you can take yourself away from the ongoing human cost of it, it would be best for the world if this thing went the distance. That is the only way Russia are going to officially ‘lose’, which is the most likely way of getting rid of Putin.