[Misc] Religion - the Church of England - what future?

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Disagree with pretty much everything you have written.
One question though - why do you think you cannot have an amazing life if you are a Christian?

I did not say that. You can have an amazing life with an obsession about Hilda Ogden, a physical disability. BUT this does not mean it makes sense to seek out an obsession with a 1970s soap character, or seek to be like Adam Hills. I'd rather not. Religion is a waste of time at best, and a divisive source of delusion or smugness or hatred at worst. I'd rather not have it.

However, if you are a Christian and have a great life, great. That is fine by me and actually none of my business. But ask yourself if it would make any difference to you if you had no religion. Or a difference to your family? Would you turn into a bad person? Do you need religion to stop you being bad? Would you be less supportive and nurturing to the family if you had no god as a reference point? If you NEED the religion to be functonal you are in trouble.

Religion as a private thing is a private thing. Go for it. But if it is imposed on others.....you didn't say that so I presume it isn't the case.

Oh and you can disagree with all my points but I am correct and you are completely wrong. I could say that I think this because I believe it, and belief is King....in which case you have no comeback. But I won't say that. Instead maybe you could explain why I'm wrong?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Only read the first page but it is obvious innit? As Bertrand Russel wrote, to paraphrase, humans invented an afterlife when existence was awful, where most people were slaves or serfs, where the strong and cunning stole everything and created systems to perpetuate and venerate their privilage. Inventing an afterlife, and a benign but stern deity, kept people sane.

As more and more of us left slavery and serfdom, religions became less relevant, BUT the powers then realised they were a cracking means of keeping the serfs quiet. The Romans invented Christianity and other power elites invented alternatives. The Catholic church is the words longest running and most successful business. Give us your money and we will tell you what to do (mostly 'give us your money') and then you'll go to Heaven. Genius.

Fast forward to today, we see religion being most important among the peasants and folk who define themselves as oppressed or dispossessed. But you can see the whole process of devotion, unconcern, and finally rejection of religion in action in the UK. I am very hard pressed to remember the last time one of the nice middle class students I teach covered their head at college, or nipped off to pray during an all day practical. It happened 20 years ago, but now I'm teaching their kids. The parents have found that a good job, a pervasive London lifestyle, and workmates from other 'backgrounds' that morph into friends, makes imposing religion on the kids something they never get around to. Yes the kids engage with it, just like I was confirmed at St Nick's in Portslade in 1969. But there are too many distractons now - distractons called HAVING A GOOD LIFE. The next generation....obvously those stuck in the working class way won't change much, though.

Bertrand Russell in the 30s described Islam as the most tolerant of religions.....it has morphed as various power elites have changed it, inventing Fatwa and making the religion and its 'enemies' a focus for daily ranting. They ramp up the extremism to give devotion a greater piquancy.

The Islamic terrorism thing and the ISIS thing in particular is what happens when you have a power elite (e.g., as we see in Iran and Saudi Arabia), lots of thick peasant yoof with a chip on its shoulder, sexual morbidity, and lots of scope to use mores from the middle ages to subjugate (women in particular, but peasant women especially will put up with a lot for a full belly and security for the bairns - my white C of E Engish mum wasn't much different in the 50s, in England, FFS). All for the benefit of the local power elite.

And it helps 'militant Islam' to have a ready made bogey man in Israel. If hoards of the middle class white militant end of UK Labour spit at the mention of Israel you can see how easy it is in Syria, Iran and elsewhere to rant about next to nothing else....


In America, we assume there is so much wealth that religion seems a strange anomaly. Perhaps a resident of the states can explain that one? My suspicion is lazy mindedness and complacency, the sort that affects peasants badly and is the reason for the morbid obesity you see in so many Americans - give peasants unlimited money and they just gorge. Like pets - they will eat the treats till they are too fat to stand.

BTW, I am from solid peasant stock. Peasantry is not genetic and it is not immutable. Education kills it and replaces it with wealth which then provides experiences and the peasant life is forgotten. And when you cease to be a peasant, if you start to wonder about the country, the world, how things work, the universe, time (and motion) you realise there is no god. And more than that, without a god we do not inevitably reduce to rutting animals killing and eating one another. That's because we have Society, respect for laws, connections with other people, and interest in engaging. Life becomes.....amazing.

Sorry for the rant but this issue bugs me.

I agree 100% with pretty much everything you've written. Re the US Christianity in particular is prevalent far more among the poor working class. It's certinaly not the exception that proves the rule. If you look at the thin veneer of respectability the Baptist church gives many in the Deep South or the Scots / Irish Protestant roots of the hillbilly community in Kentucky and surrounds they bear your points out perfectly. New York,however, is comparatively athiest. It's because (and, yes, I'm aware this sounds snobby, but it goes to the point about comfort and middle-class-ness) metropolitan areas tend to contain more people who've read more widely, experienced more of the world and formed their own opinions without needing an imaginary sky-fairy, golden ticket to heaven crutch to lean on.

Disagree with pretty much everything you have written.
One question though - why do you think you cannot have an amazing life if you are a Christian?

It was a very long and well thought out post which you've not rebutted in any way - you've just asked a question of your own instead. That's what the conspiracy lot do.

 

[Guinness Boy]

They may claim they are but i would argue they are not a good representation of Christianity.

I said the people leading the Western World, not just politicians. Is the Queen not a good representation of Christianity? How about the Pope? You seem to have all the power and none of the influence.

 

[Kneon Light]

I did not say that. You can have an amazing life with an obsession about Hilda Ogden, a physical disability. BUT this does not mean it makes sense to seek out an obsession with a 1970s soap character, or seek to be like Adam Hills. I'd rather not. Religion is a waste of time at best, and a divisive source of delusion or smugness or hatred at worst. I'd rather not have it.

However, if you are a Christian and have a great life, great. That is fine by me and actually none of my business. But ask yourself if it would make any difference to you if you had no religion. Or a difference to your family? Would you turn into a bad person? Do you need religion to stop you being bad? Would you be less supportive and nurturing to the faily if you had no god as a reference point? If you NEED the religion to be functonal you are in trouble.

Religion as a private thing is a private thing. Go for it. But if it is imposed on others.....you didn't say that so I presume it isn't the case.

Not going to impose my beliefs on anyone. It's up to everyone to consider things for themselves and make their own decisions as far as I'm concerned.
In terms of a waste of time at best - I think you are ignoring a lot of very good deeds that have been done because of Christianity (eg Christian Aid, Cafod etc)

 

[Kneon Light]

I agree 100% with pretty much everything you've written. Re the US Christianity in particular is prevalent far more among the poor working class. It's certinaly not the exception that proves the rule. If you look at the thin veneer of respectability the Baptist church gives many in the Deep South or the Scots / Irish Protestant roots of the hillbilly community in Kentucky and surrounds they bear your points out perfectly. New York,however, is comparatively athiest. It's because (and, yes, I'm aware this sounds snobby, but it goes to the point about comfort and middle-class-ness) metropolitan areas tend to contain more people who've read more widely, experienced more of the world and formed their own opinions without needing an imaginary sky-fairy, golden ticket to heaven crutch to lean on.



It was a very long and well thought out post which you've not rebutted in any way - you've just asked a question of your own instead. That's what the conspiracy lot do.

I didn't realise there was a rule on here that I had to reply to every single point made. I chose one point and asked a question based on that.

It's a shame that you have to resort to mocking/rudeness ("imaginary sky fairy") rather than be prepared to debate with respect

 

[Wardy's twin]

Yet, in the course of human history, more wars and battles have been fought in the name of religion than anything else.

Possibly true but more people died in first world war through fighting than probably all the wars before and that was not about religion. Similarly second world war was all about political ideal.

If you want to eliminate divisive activities then you need to remove political parties which unlike religion are specifically designed to be divisive by driving the demands of the party members and leaders at the cost of their opponents.

Personally (and as someone who is a non practising catholic) I think some religious ideas are generally good but unfortunately as in any walk of life , power corrupts. Sure there are religious extremists but they are generally a small minority.

The other point is that religion itself is often not the cause of the issue, if you look at our own recent experience of 'religion and conflict' in Northern Ireland it nothing to do with religious beliefs , it was about two social groups who were played off against each other by a privileged class to improve their profit line. Whilst it was easy to identify these as Catholic or Protestant it would have been as easy to identify these as native Irish and the descendants of the Scottish immigrants who came over in the 17th century.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree 100% with pretty much everything you've written. Re the US Christianity in particular is prevalent far more among the poor working class. It's certinaly not the exception that proves the rule. If you look at the thin veneer of respectability the Baptist church gives many in the Deep South or the Scots / Irish Protestant roots of the hillbilly community in Kentucky and surrounds they bear your points out perfectly. New York,however, is comparatively athiest. It's because (and, yes, I'm aware this sounds snobby, but it goes to the point about comfort and middle-class-ness) metropolitan areas tend to contain more people who've read more widely, experienced more of the world and formed their own opinions without needing an imaginary sky-fairy, golden ticket to heaven crutch to lean on.



It was a very long and well thought out post which you've not rebutted in any way - you've just asked a question of your own instead. That's what the conspiracy lot do.

Thanks for that. I sometimes wonder whether, as I get older and more infirm, and start worrying about my son and the missus, that I may start becoming religious....

The absolute utter **** I will. When I finally said loudly 'there is no god' when I was in my 30s I was liberated. And also required to use my own wits and resorces to build my life, my connections and care for my loved ones. I sometimes look to the stars and think 'I'm a lucky man and ain't it all wondrous' but then I think about all the graft I've put in, all the suffering, and I'll smile ruefully.....life is a struggle and then you die. Hopefully with something worthwhile left behind.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Thanks for that. I sometimes wonder whether, as I get older and more infirm, and start worrying about my son and the missus, that I may start becoming religious....

The absolute utter **** I will. When I finally said loudly 'there is no god' when I was in my 30s I was liberated. And also required to use my own wits and resorces to build my life, my connections and care for my loved ones. I sometimes look to the stars and think 'I'm a lucky man and ain't it all wondrous' but then I think about all the graft I've put in, all the suffering, and I'll smile ruefully.....life is a struggle and then you die. Hopefully with something worthwhile left behind.

I was told as I got older I'd get more right wing and more religious. I've become more liberal and athiest. The closer I get to D-Day the more I focus on leaving good things for those that remain when I'm worm food.

 

[Kneon Light]

And also required to use my own wits and resorces to build my life, my connections and care for my loved ones. I sometimes look to the stars and think 'I'm a lucky man and ain't it all wondrous' but then I think about all the graft I've put in, all the suffering, and I'll smile ruefully.....life is a struggle and then you die. Hopefully with something worthwhile left behind.

Absolutely all of what you have said here could also apply to a Christian's life.

 

[Saunders]

The sooner the better that ALL religions get kicked into touch they are completely irrelevant and continuously poison folk against each other and the sooner we can get back to disliking people because they’re rsoles and not because of their religion the better

I dont know, religion in its purest form has yes outlived its use of controlling the population but it can give a lot of people solace where they wouldnt get it elsewhere. Also for those who cant face the idea of death being well death. If they want to get help and talk to their imaginary friend then fine just dont force the rest of us to.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not going to impose my beliefs on anyone. It's up to everyone to consider things for themselves and make their own decisions as far as I'm concerned.
In terms of a waste of time at best - I think you are ignoring a lot of very good deeds that have been done because of Christianity (eg Christian Aid, Cafod etc)

I completely acknowledge that religions and Christians in particular do good deeds. My issue is that there is no god, and you don't need a god to be good. I think that christianity, especally C of E is beyond all this, now. Its onlly reason to exits is to comfort the old and dying, and as a collection point for us to discard old clothes. It has no intellectual or political currency any more. This means that this finer of religions is on the way out. Adherents need blood and thunder, which is why militant Islam has such appeal to the peasants. C of E is the last hurrah of the community centred spiritual types....not relevant on the global stage....a bit like the Fabians or the Vauxhall confrence.

Separately I think that giving Christian aid repeatedly to places like Somalia just empower the psychopaths there - they know that no amount of genocide and madness is out of bounds because the Christians will pop in later and save the babies....till next time. That actually makes me quite angry.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Absolutely all of what you have said here could also apply to a Christian's life.

Indeed. But what role does god play in any of that?

 

[Kneon Light]

I completely acknowledge that religions and Christians in particular do good deeds. My issue is that there is no god, and you don't need a god to be good. I think that christianity, especally C of E is beyond all this, now. Its onlly reason to exits is to comfort the old and dying, and as a collection point for us to discard old clothes. It has no intellectual or political currency any more. This means that this finer of religions is on the way out. Adherents need blood and thunder, which is why militant Islam has such appeal to the peasants. C of E is the last hurrah of the community centred spiritual types....not relevant on the global stage....a bit like the Fabians or the Vauxhall confrence.

Separately I think that giving Christian aid repeatedly to places like Somalia just empower the psychopaths there - they know that no amount of genocide and madness is out of bounds because the Christians will pop in later and save the babies....till next time. That actually makes me quite angry.

Christian Aid is empowering Psychopaths in Somalia? Never heard anyone argue that Christian aid is a bad thing before.

You say you don't need a God to be good and I agree with you BUT as I have said sociologists/criminologists have found that religion is a factor that controls crime and Christians are far more likely to donate to charity.

Whilst I fully understand you and others not believing in God I really don't get the hatred/anger toward Christians.
I really don't get why me believing in God means it is ok to mock me/look down on me.
I have my beliefs and am simply trying to live a good life - not sure what harm this does anyone.

 

[One Love]

And when you cease to be a peasant, if you start to wonder about the country, the world, how things work, the universe, time (and motion) you realise there is no god.

Or you realise there is a god

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Absolutely all of what you have said here could also apply to a Christian's life.

I certainly hope so. My point is that being a Christian isn't necessary.....what I said also applies to people who worship Allah, several Palace fans, and quite probably dolphins and whales.

Its all about suffcient and necessary. Water is necessary, tap water is sufficient. Harveys is intriguing, and red wine is divine. Saying 'cheers' is sociable. Giving thanks to god for it is unnecessary.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

I really don't get why me believing in God means it is ok to mock me/look down on me.
I have my beliefs and am simply trying to live a good life - not sure what harm this does anyone.

I haven't seen a single comment in which someone has mocked you or looked down on you. Not one

 

[Saunders]

Yet, in the course of human history, more wars and battles have been fought in the name of religion than anything else.

Very few wars have been fought over religion alone even the crusades were more about gaining power and putting yourself in the position of being the Pope which was then effectively the dictator of Europe. Religion is a convenient way of getting the people to die for you. Also the knights that went on the crusades stood to make a very nice amount of money when successful. Power, money, food and resources (which has included women) is what has caused every war.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Or you realise there is a god

No chance. More likely to realise I'm a Palace fan.

Anyway, I'm not wanting to shake your belief. And likewise I'm sure you are content to leave me to my fate.

 

[Guinness Boy]

It's a shame that you have to resort to mocking/rudeness ("imaginary sky fairy") rather than be prepared to debate with respect

But that's what the idea of god is to me. I don't believe in him / it any more than I believe in fairies, pixies or Carlisle winning the Champions League.

You on the other hand call him God and believe in Him. I don't find that mocking or rude.

 

[Kneon Light]

I haven't seen a single comment in which someone has mocked you or looked down on you. Not one

You think phrases such as "imaginary sky fairy" aren't mocking?

Comments about people stopping believing on God as they become more intelligent?