[Misc] Religion - the Church of England - what future?

[BN9 BHA]

The only church you would find me in is Charlotte.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Christian Aid is empowering Psychopaths in Somalia? Never heard anyone argue that Christian aid is a bad thing before.

You say you don't need a God to be good and I agree with you BUT as I have said sociologists/criminologists have found that religion is a factor that controls crime and Christians are far more likely to donate to charity.

Whilst I fully understand you and others not believing in God I really don't get the hatred/anger toward Christians.
I really don't get why me believing in God means it is ok to mock me/look down on me.
I have my beliefs and am simply trying to live a good life - not sure what harm this does anyone.

I absolutely do not look down on you. I am in the gutter looking at the stars like everyone else...

By the sound of it you are on the socially engaging end of religion, which though its good works is commendable. As I have said elsewhere my comments are about religion as a thing, and its wider practitioners (Isis etc), and the effects of religion (death), and is not an attack on the good intentions of individuals.

I always start with this.There is no god. From that all things religious flow for me. Instead of god as the start point we have man. Men. Their words, their deeds, their doctrines, their agendas....

I don't like charity because it is used by the right as a justification to reduce taxes and reduce political engagement with social issues.

That said, if people feel a need to mobilise a charity via attracting support from others who share a belief system then the outcome, some charity, is fine by me. But it isn't the model for the salvation of the future. It is simply crowd funding. And the god bit is irrelevant, other than as a dog whistle to attract the support of fellow travellers.

Context? Context.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

You think phrases such as "imaginary sky fairy" aren't mocking?

Comments about people stopping believing on God as they become more intelligent?

Comments like “sky fairy” mock religion, not you. Everyone has a right to mock religion, whether that’s Christianity or Scientology. It is not an attack on you.

I have read one comment that suggests the more people read the less they believe in God. Unfortunately that is a fact. It doesn’t mean only thick people are religious though.

One of the main problems I have with religion is this acceptance that people should never mock religion. Nothing else gets a pass like religion, and it’s wrong - especially given the grand claims religion gives itself

 

[Saunders]

You think phrases such as "imaginary sky fairy" aren't mocking?

Comments about people stopping believing on God as they become more intelligent?

You are being very precious, calling him an almighty god is as insulting to us as "imaginary sky fairy" is to you. The second comment on intelligence is a fair argument I would say more as to how vulnerable you are, of course there are also intelligent people that have figured out what they can gain from religion. L Ron Hubbard is a classic example of that, he wrote about it and executed it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You think phrases such as "imaginary sky fairy" aren't mocking?

Comments about people stopping believing on God as they become more intelligent?

I didn't say that.

But I could have done.

I have a lot of patience. Well, actually I have little patience.

Allegory. Look up allegory.

Thing is, you think god is a real thing whereas I and others think she is like the Mekon and Zaphod Beeblebrox. Imaginary.

And on that note I now signal a religious War, fought either to the death, or to a point where one party is sifficiently persuaded they have the moral high ground that they flounce.

I know where my money is.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have been in Lambeth Palace a few times for non religious reasons. Amazing palace. Great catering. Boy, what a bunch....the same psychpathic triple firsts from oxbridge that ponce about my sector (science). Except in costume. A clever riposte, quoting a Greek scholar on radio 4 is akin to a clever riposte citing the latest editorial in Nature in the snior common room (albeit we don't have senior common rooms any more). Nobbers. Anyway, they are ruining the business and need to get with it. All the money is going to the Catholics and the new kids in town, the Islamists.

 

[pastafarian]

Comments about people stopping believing on God as they become more intelligent?

Perhaps it should read "stopping believing in your god as they become more intelligent"


The enlightened know its all about the noodles

 

[Megazone]

Perhaps it should read "stopping believing in your god as they become more intelligent"


The enlightened know its all about the noodles
]

Judging by your post which makes no sense, I take it you are a believer in God then?

 

[pastafarian]

Judging by your post which makes no sense, I take it you are a believer in God then?

If it makes no sense to you,you should stick with being unable to infer anything from it.
Anything else just makes you argumentative for the sake of it

 

[GT49er]

They need to take a long hard look at their youth system.

They're just not bringing enough kids through.

Maybe Tony Bloom can build them a state-of-the-art prayer academy.

The Muslims already have them a-plenty. Now you're suggesting there should be a Jewish lead version - so where does that leave Christianity?

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Roll on the new season ................

 

[knocky1]

It's a difficult one. Christianity as a religion - especially C.of E - is on the wane; science has shown tat the one god and heaven ideas are a bit unlikely. So what does Islam do, that it keeps growing? Threat of death if you leave, for a start (apostasy is a capital offence under Islamic law), but I don't think that's the only explanation - but I don't know what the others are. Science has made Allah as unlikely as God (they're both the same person really) but it doesn't seem to have convinced the Moslems!
It's a shame in a way - there was much about C.of E/Christianity that I liked - Christmas carols, kids' school nativity plays, things like that, but yes, I guess it's got to go eventually as the west moves towards a secular society. That does leave me concerned about Islam; I'm not worried about people worshipping Allah or Mohammed, but there are aspects of Islam - the associated culture anyway - (see ISIS for example, fatwahs and 'honour' killings) that I do not want in this beautiful land of Britain.

Your concern worries me a lot.

 

[Sirnormangall]

The main point of religion for the most part is to be anything but divisive.

I agree and it is is difficult to argue against the values espoused by C of E. The church generally has failed to keep pace with modern life, but there seems to be an interesting revival in many areas - for example, St Peters church attracts hundreds of people each Sunday with ( so I hear) a modern and vibrant programme.

That said, I’ve always been disheartened at the hypocrisy of most religions: the wars and terrorist incidents that are founded on the basis of so called religious beliefs. I have a number of religious friends who rarely receive any support from the church when times get tough. The future of the C of E doesn’t look bright to me.

 

[hart's shirt]

Is it already too late to encourage people back to church? Is that it for the C of E?

Firstly, it's worth adding that the C of E is only one denomination. Maybe the question is really 'Is that it for the UK Christian church?'

Secondly, the church is primarily seen by believers as the being the body of people, not just a physical structure that might in the future be converted into housing, a bingo hall or...gulp...a retail park. Thus a church can meet in a school, a cinema, a warehouse, a pub or anywhere else...not just a religious building. No crosses on roofs compulsory.

Now, to answer the question, there's the issue of theology and how it's applied.

Too often confessional theology says one thing whilst practical theology says something else.
- We say that regeneration makes us new creatures in Christ, but then we teach a moralism that atheists can duplicate
- We say that Christianity is about a trusting relationship with Jesus, but then we treat it like checking a box on a decision card
- We say that only the Holy Spirit transfers a person from darkness to light, but then we employ the same marketing tools used for switching toothpaste brands

Sadly, the perception still remains that church, especially the C of E, is for 'nice' people, whatever standard of 'niceness' is used.

But if religion is all about being nice , then we can be nice outside the church. And it's probably a lot more convenient that way.

Even better, there's plenty of different kinds of nice for a pick n' mix theology:
- Polite but detached tolerance of 'live and let live' nice
- Socially conscious and politically engaged nice
- Denominational and faith-community religious nice
- 'Spiritual but not religious' nice
- Nonconfrontational, 'let's not make you feel uncomfortable, even though we're silently judging you' nice
...and plenty more besides...

Nice allows us to commend ourselves to others..and maybe even to God. Nice gives us the means of self-justification and the ability to vindicate our lives. And if religion is nothing more than an aid to self-improvement, we'd all be emotionally better off if we abandoned the moral and religious project of self-justification and instead adopted the psychological project of personal growth and self-acceptance. The therapeutic professions have been telling us this for the last century.

You don't need Jesus to be nice.

And so the answer, if it's just about being 'nice', is probably 'Yes to some degree'. Declining UK church congregations might back that up.

But maybe we need more than that.

Maybe we don't need to be nice.

Maybe we need to be made anew with a new heart, a new nature and a new paradigm in looking at the world.

But that's a different question...

 

[GT49er]

You mean we should go back to being sexist, homophobic and threatening people with hell? I would say the loss of religion in the last 50 years has allowed us to move towards gender equality and sexuality rights, countries that are still religious are a long way behind in these respects.

You are picking out bits of Christian dogma (all Old Testament, if I'm not mistaken) in the same way as ISIS pick the nasty bits they want out of Islam.

 

[Megazone]

If it makes no sense to you,you should stick with being unable to infer anything from it.
Anything else just makes you argumentative for the sake of it

The definition of idiot should have the above post attached to it.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

I’m sure many will disagree with me...

Leave it to decline. The world would be a better place without religion.

Yeah, but all those atheists will still want their Christmas and Easter ....

 

[knocky1]

You are picking out bits of Christian dogma (all Old Testament, if I'm not mistaken) in the same way as ISIS pick the nasty bits they want out of Islam.

Nice alignment ISIS alongside neo Nazis, neo Liberals and neo thickos all picking the nasty bits.

 

[pastafarian]

The definition of idiot should have the above post attached to it.

Excellent way to show you are not being argumentative for the sake of it.
Outstanding work.

 

[pastafarian]

Yeah, but all those atheists will still want their Christmas and Easter ....

Not sure i know any atheists who celebrate jesus at christmas or easter, seems to be more about the days off work, hanging out with family and chocolate