[Misc] Religion - the Church of England - what future?

[sydney]

Great post and you bring up a lot of really interesting points. I am guilty as an atheist of questioning the faith of the religious I admit and although this is not a full justification of why I do it I will explain my reasoning; I am absolutely staggered that anyone can believe the stories of religion in the world today and in particular very well educated and intelligent people such as the ones on this board, I just cannot get my head around it. I am not sure how a person could come to the conclusion the earth is around 6000 years old when every single shred of evidence goes against that, I do not understand how some people turn their nose up at evolution when the evidence is overwhelming, I do not get how an educated and rational Muslim can really believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.

I was brought up as roman catholic and my education reflected this up to the age of 16, I turned my back on faith as soon as I could, not because I think it is evil but because I thought it was just not true.

ditto......if we now have a population of pushing 8 billion which is supposed to have started with a randy couple in a garden ....

 

[One Love]

I am indeed guilty of pushing my questions on to those with faith and perhaps I should really just leave people to believe in what they want to but I am genuinely intrigued as to how someone comes to the rational conclusion that any of it is true.

I'm not sure anyone can come to a rational conclusion that God exists. If they have, I'd like to hear their logic.

My personal beliefs came from a sort of knowing which I explored and then started feeling something else. That feeling has grown and continues to.

I've come to the conclusion. partly thanks to NSC, that we are all part of a group, all having different views, beliefs, etc on absolutely everything. Like NSC has people from the far left to the far right in political views and everything in the middle. In the same way there are extremely intellectual people and those that like their lives more heavily on feeling. None of it is wrong but I do think every standpoint should be respected. Obviously there are those that don't agree with that and want to try and change people

 

[Wilko]

I'm not sure anyone can come to a rational conclusion that God exists. If they have, I'd like to hear their logic.

My personal beliefs came from a sort of knowing which I explored and then started feeling something else. That feeling has grown and continues to.

I've come to the conclusion. partly thanks to NSC, that we are all part of a group, all having different views, beliefs, etc on absolutely everything. Like NSC has people from the far left to the far right in political views and everything in the middle. In the same way there are extremely intellectual people and those that like their lives more heavily on feeling. None of it is wrong but I do think every standpoint should be respected. Obviously there are those that don't agree with that and want to try and change people

See, I agree with you in essence but where do you draw the line at letting someone believe in their religious views? What if they believe gays should burn in hell or that it is ok to beat your wife or that being a suicide bomber is aiding god? Do we stand back and say fair enough, that is what you believe, you crack on mate or do we challenge it?

 

[The Spanish]

The Universe does appear quite large when you see pictures of the Hubble telescope.

yes compared to a telescope the universe is massive

 

[One Love]

See, I agree with you in essence but where do you draw the line at letting someone believe in their religious views? What if they believe gays should burn in hell or that it is ok to beat your wife or that being a suicide bomber is aiding god? Do we stand back and say fair enough, that is what you believe, you crack on mate or do we challenge it?

Of course any extreme views if they influence or harm others must be challenged, like they would if they had those views without a religious origin.

 

[dangull]

Its interesting that in the Soviet Union era atheism was part of the system, yet when it broke up the Christian church has become very popular again in Russia, including with the leader of the country. All this in the modern age, when science is supposed to be changing our views according to many.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

None of it is wrong but I do think every standpoint should be respected. Obviously there are those that don't agree with that and want to try and change people

It seems to me that quite a few religious people want to try and change people as they are forever knocking on my door or approaching me in the street.

 

[One Love]

It seems to me that quite a few religious people want to try and change people as they are forever knocking on my door or approaching me in the street.

I'm sure there are those like that and I don't agree with it. I come across that rarely but I can see why that would annoy you if it's happening a lot.

I've had some experience with Jehovah's Witnesses at the front door. Got to admit I've had fun in the past picking their beliefs apart, haven't seen one for ages.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

I'm sure there are those like that and I don't agree with it. I come across that rarely but I can see why that would annoy you if it's happening a lot.

I've had some experience with Jehovah's Witnesses at the front door. Got to admit I've had fun in the past picking their beliefs apart, haven't seen one for ages.

I am always polite and just say I am not interested, much as I do with most cold callers

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm sure there are those like that and I don't agree with it. I come across that rarely but I can see why that would annoy you if it's happening a lot.

I've had some experience with Jehovah's Witnesses at the front door. Got to admit I've had fun in the past picking their beliefs apart, haven't seen one for ages.

If they find out you know your bible, they blacklist you.
We haven't had a visit from JWs for years.

 

[The Sock of Poskett]

If they find out you know your bible, they blacklist you.
We haven't had a visit from JWs for years.

Not sure the JWs are doing door to door so much these days - they seem to have switched their approach to small stands in town centre locations.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

Not sure the JWs are doing door to door so much these days - they seem to have switched their approach to small stands in town centre locations.

I have friends who are JW’s and they still door knock but also spend time outside Tesco with a stand

 

[Jackthelad]

Church of England and the Catholic church are going to become tiny in the UK. The Church of England especially is more or less a church for old people or cultural christians, it will always be there only because it has so much protection by the state/Royals but most church going Christians have left the Church of England a long time ago and moved to other churches. The only churches that grow are community based churches often the the evangelical churches and plant churches that understand that they have to help communities.

 

[RandyWanger]

Say what you will about organised religion, those ******** knew how to construct an edifice

 

[Mellotron]

I count myself to be in a reasonably unique position as I work for the C of E but am not especially religious. There are a few things I've noticed in discourse surrounding religion these days.

1) It isn't fashionable to be religious. Quite a lot of atheists like to posit the idea that theists are a bit weird for having the audacity to have a different world view to them. I've been reading quite a lot of Yuval Noah Harrari recently so apologies for plagiarising him entirely, but: lots of things are made up - countries, the stock market, money, Google. It's only humanity's shared belief in them that makes them exist. Obviously religion is slightly different as it lacks the practical application that the others seem to have. Additionally, religion is often seen as the common denominator to the world's problems and conflicts (an argument that I don't really buy; homo sapiens has proved itself to be a very destructive race throughout history). It could be argued religion creates more problems than a car manufacturer. However, the real problem here is that a large part of society that bases itself entirely on common belief in shared myths happily mocks people for believing in a different myth. I see it as quite a strange argument, coming from people that are perhaps oblivious to the fact that most of what's around them is socially constructed.

2) This leads to a real disconnect between atheists and believers. Atheists make lots of assumptions about the nature of religious worship without ever experiencing it for themselves. There are a few notable exceptions, but I have to say most of the priests I have worked with are pretty standard people that just happen to have a different world view to me.

3) This isn't to say that the experience of worship isn't weird. Every day I have to say the Lord's Prayer (Our Father etc..) without paying any real attention to the words. On the odd occasion that I do, there is an overwhelming sense that I am part of some mad cult. My motivation for doing my work is for personal progression in a specialised field, but it is sometimes hard not to feel that the whole religious side of it is a big waste of time.

4) Religious people can be dicks. Non-religious people can be dicks. People can be dicks.

5) People who attack religion from a totally logical and scientific standpoint are, in my opinion at least, missing the point slightly. I think the majority of normal religious people use it as a moral code from which they can live their lives. It doesn't mean they necessarily agree with every word of the Bible. It doesn't mean they want gays to burn in hell. The idea that religion provides repressive doctrines is actually a bit wide of the mark, as religion is in fact the influence behind much of current liberal Western ideology.

6) The predominantly liberal Western world we live in owes much of its ideological influences to religion. Humans weren't born programmed with the aim of being nice to each other. Various species of human routinely hunted and killed each other thousands of years ago. Modern civilisation was created by humanity's ability to organise itself in large groups due to common belief in myths, many of which were religions. All 'good' things that people do nowadays, be it altruistic, cooperative or just well-meaning, can be equated to the fundamental principles of religion.

I guess one of the points I'm making is that atheists love nothing more than distancing themselves from religious types in every single way. The truth is, they're not really so different.

Best post I've seen about religion on NSC, probably ever.

 

[Mellotron]

I am not sure how a person could come to the conclusion the earth is around 6000 years old when every single shred of evidence goes against that, I do not understand how some people turn their nose up at evolution when the evidence is overwhelming, .

I think you are confusing Christians with Creationists. I have about 200-300 Christian friends/acquiantances (#accidentalpartridge). At a prediction based on years and years of conversations, I genuinely reckon no more than 5-10 of them would be Creationists (i.e. believe that all of the The Bible is to be taken exactly literally, and that the World is 6,000 years old, etc.

I also believe the vast majority of them fully believe in and accept the process of evolution exists and is measurable, as I do.

I do think these figures are different in America, where Creationists seem to make up a far larger proportion. My moral beliefs would almost certainly be more in line with yours than they would with the average Creationist.

 

[Wilko]

I think you are confusing Christians with Creationists. I have about 200-300 Christian friends/acquiantances (#accidentalpartridge). At a prediction based on years and years of conversations, I genuinely reckon no more than 5-10 of them would be Creationists (i.e. believe that all of the The Bible is to be taken exactly literally, and that the World is 6,000 years old, etc.

I also believe the vast majority of them fully believe in and accept the process of evolution exists and is measurable, as I do.

I do think these figures are different in America, where Creationists seem to make up a far larger proportion. My moral beliefs would almost certainly be more in line with yours than they would with the average Creationist.

As you well know, I put a caveat in brackets at the end of this paragraph stating that I am aware that not all religious people believe these things, you know, the bit that you have cropped off.

 

[Mellotron]

As you well know, I put a caveat in brackets at the end of this paragraph stating that I am aware that not all religious people believe these things, you know, the bit that you have cropped off.

Apologies - I didn't intentionally crop anything off, in my haste I just took the bit that was relevant. My point still stands that I believe - especially amongst younger Christians - that Creationists are in a very large minority.